during the gu li - lee sedol jubango game 1 during the endgame, someone had asked someone to a stream for the game, and user Pempu posted a link to baduktv's stream on youtube. nyanjilla quickly struck it down saying "no illegal links on youtube". there were about a dozen people who quickly spoke up saying that it was legal because the stream was coming from baduk tv itself which was a legal broadcaster. but over the next 10 minutes, nyan would continually say "youtube is not an authorized broadcaster" which makes zero sense because youtube is not a broadcaster but a broadcasting platform. i also talked to javaness about this, but he just kind of brushed me off when he found out i had a legit case. eventually, nyan/usgo shut down the kibitz, and the convo moved to EGR. at this point, i PMed nyan trying to explain this. in this she said something to the effect of "why would there be a free broadcast of a big event?" so then i posted this link in PM: baduktv.kr/baduk/user/main - which showed a free broadcast on the stream. the same stream in fact. she then said that it was ok to post that one. it didnt make much sense to ban one but not the other but ok, ill take the small victory.

by this time, the kibitz had been reopened. i then said that the issue was resolved and made a link to baduktv.kr/baduk/user/main. i posted this but it wasnt clickable. nyanjilla then said "post a clickable link plz". i did post a clickable link and she said "thx". about a minute later, ive been kicked off kgs and banned for "not following admin direction". thinking it was a misunderstanding, i logged on another device and pmed nyan saying my account was banned and thinking it was a misunderstanding. instantly im banned again for the same reason.

okay, ill send an email to the admin email that everyone tells me is so great. ive done it several times before without success so i had low hopes, but i think they took a step down this time. this is the first exchange i got:



so obviously i felt like this in inappropriate and replied saying that it was not appropriate, seventeen did not reply to me again.

later on, doug took up the email saying he does not understand the basis of my complaint. i basically reiterate what i said above. he says "why did you want to post the link?". i then say because someone had ask then where was a whole issue about illegal links so i posted a legal link, and i let the kibitz know it was a legal link. this is his reply:
"
There were quite a few references to other servers throughout the broadcast, as you would have seen. Even from your e-mail (e.g., the reference to Nyanjilla versus some kibbitzers), it seems obvious to me that the need for even more links wasn't necessary.


For the upcoming events, I suggest that you simply enjoy them and comment upon them. It's not necessary to be an ad hoc marketing agent on behalf of YouTube or other broadcasters. They have enough people doing that already.

Regards,
Doug"

so now i feel like doug is asking others to view other servers instead of kgs? thats strange. also, someone had asked for a link not that long ago so i was straightening it out. but it was the last two sentences that struck me as most strange. how is telling nyanjilla that posting a link to a youtube link wasnt illegal being an advertiser for youtube?

my reply to him basically said the above, and now hes trying to brush off the issue:

Hello,

I've stated the KGS position and you have stated yours. Instead of getting into an endless loop of restating our positions, let's just leave it here.

Regards,
Doug

i then reply that he still hasnt told me why i was banned and why i was deserved to be banned. his reply included this:

Hello,

...

You've been booted so many times for inappropriate behaviour over the years that your margin of error isn't as high as some others. If we look at this situation, for example, you argued with Nyan for quite a long time. Why did you feel the need to do that? Why not simply accept her judgement in the first place?


then i had to point out that i did not argue with nyan, i was trying to explain to her that it was incorrect (which is why i could not accept it). i was civil, i was not insulting anyone, i was just trying to tell her that it was a legal link, and eventually i just posted a legal link in the kibitz. and by a long time, it was maybe 5-10 minutes.

at this point im still asking him why i was banned, and then he sends me this

I have had many, many discussions with you in which you complained about bans. Regardless of whatever reasoning I used, you have never yet agreed with a ban decision. You have always insisted that you were correct and you are the injured party, a victim of admin persecution, etc.

I therefore believe such discussions with you are pointless and a waste of time, because I don't think you'll ever believe that your behaviour was incorrect. Therefore, I'll provide my perspective once and not simply repeat it. I have explained it to you once, so I'm not going to do so again.


this is still not explaining why i was banned this time. this is how it ended:


so now i am left here, again with no reason as to why i was banned this time. the logic was just "youve been banned before so deal with it"

during the exchange he did mention the first seventeen reply:
"
If you want to forward Seventeen's response to wms, then that's up to you. I don't think that wms will care one way or the other. He doesn't get involved in the day-to-day management of the server. That's what the admins are for. He would get involved if there was a serious misjudgement by an admin (and I've seen him do that), but I don't think Seventeen's response to you qualifies as such.
"

the real question is will wms care about the way his admins are treating users if he sees it though.

thanks for your time. i included images only on certain parts because i felt like it needed the proof immediately. i still have the whole email exchange up and will be more than happy to show it to people who ask.


[admin]
Wide attachments put in hide tags to make the page fit horizontally.
-JB
[/admin]

1. Posting a youtube link does not mean that it is officially sanctioned by the original broadcaster as a free stream. If the link was from a page of the original broadcaster which lead to the youtube stream, that would be more kosher.

2. You mentioned that the conversation migrated to EGR after the kibitz was shut down. Admins in EGR do not take kindly to discussions on things which happen on other go servers because it would be similar to advertising for their competitors.

If you were hired by Coca-cola to monitor a forum designed to get people to enjoy Coke more, how would you react to someone posting a thread which kept telling people that a certain Pepsi sponsored event link is really worth clicking?

3. It has long been established that you are only allowed to advertise once per 24 hours in EGR or you will face a ban. Constantly talking about something sponsored by a competitor and providing a link to such is walking a very fine line.

If someone asks in the room for some information on competitor sponsored events, it's not advertising. If you decide to answer the person with a competitor's link in public rather than PM, that could be deemed advertising.

The KGS TOS clearly states that "there are certain behaviors that are absolutely not tolerated at KGS:" and it includes the following:
Using KGS as an advertising medium. This includes setting up "ad games" (games where you don't want to play, but you just want the game's info line to appear in a room's game list) or using rooms, games, private chats, or messages to promote a business.

The TOS also says "When an admin makes a request, please comply even if you disagree with the admin. Ignoring the admin or arguing in public about it is likely to get you temporarily blocked from the server."

4. If you use KGS, you have agreed to the TOS. You can of course choose not to log onto KGS but using it means you need to abide by the KGS TOS.

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

seems like you have missed the point several times

1. the stream did come from the baduk TV youtube channel, and the stream from the baduk tv site had been linked to earlier in the game.

2. i dont see this being relevant to anything i did.

3. the link was never posted in EGR, it was posted in kibitz. it was not advertising, it was posting a link to a stream of the same game that we were watching and it had been posted several times during the game, but that was the first time the youtube stream was posted, which was the exact same as the baduktv stream, and hosted by the baduktv youtube channel

4. how did i violate the TOS then?

baduktv is a business not associated with KGS. AFAIK, it's not a paid advertiser on KGS. If you keep talking about baduktv, you are promoting a business and such is against KGS TOS.

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

according to nyanjilla, baduk tv was an authorized broadcaster of the game, so it would be allowed to post a link to there. nyan herself even said it was ok to post a link to baduk tv stream when we talked in private message

id appreciate if you read all the post next time, thanks. i mean i even underlined part of what youre talking about.

Nyan said the link from the baduktv main site was ok, not the youtube link.

I said that KGS allows most people to post one ad per 24 hours. And I said if you keep talking about baduktv, it's promoting a business. If you just posted the link once from the baduktv main site, there is nothing wrong with that if you only post it once per 24 hours. If you keep talking about baduktv thereafter, that's promoting a business and against KGS TOS.

If you talk about youtube after talking about baduktv, that's clearly promoting another business. Right away you have violated posting only one ad per 24 hours by promoting 2 different businesses.

As per your quote of BD's email


Clearly the admins at KGS see you as promoting business.

Note that the one ad per 24 hours is something the admins tolerate rather than being something clearly allowed by the TOS. It means it is a leeway for most people. Note also that in your situation, the amount of leeway they grant you is much less than for most people.

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

i wasnt the one posting a youtube link, i posted the baduk tv link. only once. in the kibitz. with nyans permission. even so, the whole "one ad per 24 hours" is only an EGR rule. it does not apply when its authorized in a kibitz. like posting a link to euro go tv streams when they do broadcasts, you can post the link to the stream when asked, just like they allowed the baduktv stream to be linked when asked if there was a stream to the game.

and again, i used that email as an example of him not understanding the situation and trying to pass judgement, just as you are now.

i cant even tell if youre just trolling me at this point

Being in disagreement doesn't mean trolling. I just don't see the situation the same way you do.

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

no, but a clear lack of understanding of the situation plus continuing to bring up points where i had refuted them in the original post can be considered trolling.

I don't see the points being refuted in the original post. I just see you expressing discontent over a situation where things did not work out in your favor.

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

I just wanted to clarify one point here: the one ad per 24 hours is a server-wide rule, not an EGR rule.

your main point is that im "promoting a business" when all i did was post a link to a stream of the game, with admin permission, and then i was banned for it. then i was trolled by two other admins in the admin email

and you also keep bringing up a "one ad every 24 hour" rule, which is a rule applied to main rooms. see the post that you conveniently ignored and only made a one line comment about the very last line:

so yes your points have been refuted both in the original post and in the replies.



after i posted that i thought it would be brought up, i remembered that the rule would be applied to main rooms. however, it is not the same as posting a link to a stream in a game that was asked for and having admin permission on top of that!

You remembered incorrectly. It is a server wide rule.

you want to argue an irrelevant point or do you want to get back to the main issue? i really couldnt care less exactly what rooms the rule would apply to, especially when i didnt break it and i never have broke it.

I am not arguing anything, I simply wanted to clarify a factual inaccuracy lest someone get a false impression from reading it.

My point is that even if the link is authorized, if you keep talking about it continuously, it's promoting business. Although the youtube link was not posted by you, if you keep talking about it continuously, it's promoting business. Promotion of business on KGS is not permitted.

Regarding Euro go, it's something which has a relationship with KGS, you often see Euro go broadcast on KGS, so why would they not allow you to post something they have a relationship with. If I recall correctly, Euro go seems to advertise on KGS as well.


When an admin clarifies a rule and you say you could care less about it, what does this say about you and whether you abide by server rules?

--------------

Thanks Mef for your clarification on the 24 hours per ad on KGS being server wide.

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

i wasnt the one continually talking about it. there was about a dozen people who were talking about it over that span. i had never linked it, i didnt talk about it at all when it was in the kibitz. when it was moved to EGR i said a few lines out of the maybe 50 that had come out. then i pmed nyanjilla because the whole thing was getting annoying and i wanted the drama done with. we talked, she then clearly told me that posting the baduk tv link would be allowed. thats why i went back to the kibitz after it opened up and let the others know that posting the baduk tv link was allowed. then nyan even told me to post it a second time because the one i had posted was not clickable.

not to mention nyan kept bringing up an invisible "list of authorized broadcasters" and baduk tv was one of them.

this was not any different from me posting a link to a eurogotv stream.

ok, I have nothing further to say regarding this situation. Thank you for clarifying your position.

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

I guess KGS admins could just bring up the KGS logs and clarify the whole situation, with written proof since xDragon is bringing written stuff. If taken completely by xDragon's explanation, it almost feels like he was framed by Nyanjilla and then banned by someone else. I doubt it, such a level of plotting seems out of hand for something that does not even seem a violation of anything.

Just discussing the advertising part, though, I don't see how xD could be banned by it. If he really just posted once, and only talked once clarifying a legal point, where was the promotion? And in case he posted a Youtube link twice, or referenced it several times (as seems implied by BigDoug's quoted response by xDragon,) seriously? KGS admins assume someone in the world able enough to get KGS doesn't know what YouTube is and needs more advertising? Also, talking about something that someone else has referenced is also advertising? If advertising something was so easy I'd have an easier life at work, as well as a lot of other people working online.

Also, talking about other servers is a problem now? Or will be in the near future? I've already seen this in IGS, back when I was getting into go. It was not fun to see, actually a shame.

I'm terribly bothered by this line, that I can only assume it's true (since when someone quotes someone else, you have to be wary of omissions):



I personally have a hard time accepting wrong judgements just because they come from someone with power. I have the same problem with people without power, too, but when it's people who should be more knowledgeable spreading wrongness, it boils me.

I've had only one encounter with a KGS admin (IIRC it was BD, by the way,) I think I have already written it down before. I was in the Spanish Room (IIRC) and when I logged in there was some turmoil because someone had been banned for some obscure reason. I asked what had happened and he (IIRC, again, but it was an admin in any case) told me not to ask. I replied something along the lines of "I just got in here and was wondering what's wrong, it's just a question" and the next comment was the threat of being banned, just for asking. So, even though I know policing online stuff is hard, I feel sometimes they overstep. So I just learnt that if an admin says something in KGS I just have to ignore who is the threatened if it's not me or comply if it is me. It's not a good feeling, but as long as I'm just in the private NGA room most of the time I can't get into any problem, ever.

_________________
Geek of all trades, master of none: the motto for my blog mostlymaths.net

Without knowing anything about the KGS rules, the antecedents, or the discussion... since I don't know both sides of the story I will not enter in if the ban was justified or not. But about the manners, when a user writes to the official support e-mail, and the first answer that gets is:



I would say that the Support Team has a huge problem to deal with, because really really looks like it can only be a very personal and vindictive ban .

In any of the sites that I have been an admin or moderator, something like that wasn't tolerated, specially in a place in which any user can become a customer (KGS+).


And the later response for a superior instance, in my opinion is close to normal, maybe wasn't good enough in this case. At least it deserves an apologize for the "subordinate" tone of the reply, and a promise of taking a closer look to the incident. At least for confirming or not that one admin asked him to put that link, and afterwards thanks him, if that's the case, the different criteria between admins should not cause prejudice in a user.


After that, if the user is really persistent... you can ether consult with other admins if the user's claims are strongly reasoned, or if it's a troll, reply only once more politely a ignore. But,



This dynamic, looks a little bit childish for an admin (and is feeding the possible trolls a lot).


I know how exasperating (and ungrateful) the admin/moderator works is, and that some times you just lost the temper, but specially when there is the posiblity of loosing potential clients it should be handle more carefully .