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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #501 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:44 am 
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The move number is wrong. White's last move can't have been 111.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 11? W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O B . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's not like there's a choice.

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #502 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:52 pm 
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So many comments... I think Joaz thinks he has it in the bag, but I think Shapenaji will know better.

After extensive reading, I think we're going to end up slightly behind after this move, but depending on how many times we need to change moves, it'll still be a game.

So I retract my previous declaration of victory.

But I don't think this game is by any means over.
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #503 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:07 pm 
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Approved, of course.
If white does this it looks like smooth sailing for us:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 11? W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O B 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


We also get too many liberties if white does this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 11? W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O 3 . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O B 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . 1 4 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And this seems to work for us also:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 11? W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O B 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White either has something good up their sleeve or in their pipe...

All diagrams seem terrible for white but I guess they will choose from the first two.

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #504 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:49 pm 
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #505 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:45 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 11?+1 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Looking at a few options:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 11?+1 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X B 1 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O 3 . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 11?+1 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X B 1 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O 2 . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 11?+1 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O 1 . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X B . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, here's what I think: The second option just won't happen. The first option looks better than the third, so our opponents will pick the third. It looks similar to my recent diagrams, only with slightly more cutting points. A little concerning, but I see no better move. From a metagame perspective: this fight is for the game. Regardless of how many corrections are required, whoever wins the fight wins the game. As Joaz and Shape have not resigned yet, they have read out either 1) a solution or 2) enough opportunity to give hope. Shape is one of the best people at reading on the forum, so if he's confident enough to carry on, I'll pick the best move I see and soldier on.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #506 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:25 pm 
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Approved.

Gresil wrote:
The move number is wrong. White's last move can't have been 111.


I believe that I am now approving move 116.

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #507 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:26 pm 
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Approved.

(no idea regarding the move numbering, but I trust Joaz)

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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #508 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:34 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 117 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X B . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I very nearly played R12...

Image

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #509 Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:56 am 
Gosei
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Approved.

I still expect the sequence in my last post, still not sure how white will salvage this.

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #510 Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:47 am 
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #511 Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:12 pm 
Gosei
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Per my last analysis:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 118 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O W . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #512 Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:22 pm 
Judan
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I approve.

To observers:
This is happening way too fast. Somebody has misread. I don't think that is us.

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #513 Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:48 pm 
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Approved.
Joaz is probably right that they have not read this all the way to the end, but right now at least, it's unbranched, good or bad, they can't avoid these moves

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #514 Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:14 pm 
Gosei
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Trigger for after Gresil's play:
If it is S8, I approve.

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #515 Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:23 pm 
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Trigger for Gresil's play:

If S8, then I approve.


To observers:

I believe I will have to change the next 2 moves.
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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #516 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:24 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 119 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O B . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Still the only move. This seems to be leading to quite a liberty-gibet.

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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #517 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:26 am 
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I took the liberty, no pun intended, of checking the triggers and it's suddenly Chew's turn.

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #518 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:02 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 120 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I see no other way.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #519 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:39 pm 
Judan
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I approve.

To observers:
Black has as many liberties as they are ever going to get. There are now three posibilities for black:

1) Start a liberties race against the upper white group.
If they start this, the loser of the race probably has to resign.

2) Start a liberties race against the right side white group.
Again, the loser of the race probably resigns.

3) Move once more along the side.
This crawling along the side does not gain any liberties for them after we hane. It is aji keshi. But it does offer possibilities of a ko.
So if black plays it, they are conceding that neither 1 nor 2 works, and that some kind of ko is the best that they can do.


If Violence lets 1 or 2 happen, the game is over quickly. If he goes for 3 and makes us concede our left side group to a ko threat, then the play will suddenly switch to to the lower left corner. If he goes for 3 but we are able to save our left side group, but concede one of our smaller groups, then we are ahead enough for an easy win.

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #520 Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:09 am 
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I Approve

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