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 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #21 Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:30 pm 
Gosei

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Boidhre wrote:
I'm pretty sure I read a style guide a few years ago that recommended avoiding the "X times more" construction in general use because it is ambiguous (it isn't ambiguous in some fields).

It's usually avoided because most people would say three times as many rather than two times more because it's a lot more intuitive.

I tend think about these in terms of percentages. If you would say "300% more" instead of "three times more" (or bigger/taller/whatever), it wouldn't be ambiguous, or would it? (similarly "half bigger" is clearly "50% more", not "100% more").

This brings us to earlier question: "4 times closer". That would be "400% closer", which is an impossibility. What is probably meant is "1/4 of the distance" = "75% closer" = "3/4 closer"?

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #22 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:52 pm 
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Universal go server handle: Quiettimes
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not a good start. Somehow, during all the D10 talk, I missed the fact that my opponent played a move. oops! Standard opening.

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #23 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:21 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If QT takes the open corner, I might go with orthodox. If he plays at D3, I might approach at D5 or P3. Or if he goes with D4, I could approach for mini or micro chinese. So many options.

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #24 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:30 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #25 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:45 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I thought about the enclosure, but decided to be more bold instead. No doubt there are people here who can tell me why I'm wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #26 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:51 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 6 . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, here we go again. No friendly game. Go for the kill and be frenemies. So standard opening for me. Trying to learn this joseki and like it. The old me would play to own the corner. Splitting a corner to gain the side really goes against my beginner grain.

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #27 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:39 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . 7 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #28 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:51 pm 
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Quietimes, I have a quick question: when are you mostly on this forum in terms of time of day?

I ask because I can check our game at a variety of times from about 8am-10pm eastern time in the USA. However, if you're mostly on here around a specific time, I won't check our game when you likely haven't been on.

Thanks. I'm enjoying our game already.

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #29 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:12 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . 8 . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . 7 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



So, kind of thrown off by his attachment. Will stick to the plan however


Well, most often between 8pm and 10pm EST. I do try and sneak on for a peek during daytime hours.

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #30 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:41 pm 
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As happens far too often, an opponent's unexpected move makes me unsure of what to do. In this case, I expected white 8 at C2. Could back off to C11 or C12 and form a sort-of chinese variation. I could just enclose at C15 or C16. In that case, if QT decides to play a splitting attack on the left side, I'm fairly confident that my bottom left group could settle locally. Or I could approach at P4, but that seems premature. Or I could do something both greedy and insane and play something like E7, E8, or F6. So many options. Such a need for sleep. I'll just have to see what I think in the morning.

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Post #31 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:15 pm 
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quietimes,
quietimes wrote:
So, kind of thrown off by his attachment.
Why were you thrown off by his attachment? What were you expecting instead of :b7: ?

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Post #32 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:16 pm 
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( For beginners. ) Instead of :w8: in the game, this is another sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #33 Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:39 am 
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Having gotten two hours of sleep:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . O . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In a proper mini-chinese, D5 would be at C6, and, as such, black 9 is probably too far away from this stone. However, since I'm confident that my group in the lower left can live locally, I'm willing to take the risk.

Edit: Having given this a bit more thought as to QT's options:
Lower left: since he played away with white 8, I don't expect this.
Enclose lower right: I would expect a high enclosure at P4 since it seems more efficient than P3. However, this looks a little slow at this point of the game
Approach upper left at C15 or D15: He might want to break up the left side before I can enclose. However, I think I could get a good result on the top from this.
Splitting the top at K16, K17: I'm used to these being played out after black has already enclosed at C15, so I'm a little uncertain how they might play out. I can envision it going better for him in some scenarios and better for me in others.
Approaching upper right: O17 looks like it could give me a good result. If R14, I'll probably back off (not sure high or low) and QT can go into Kobayashi (I think)?


Last edited by ikkyu on Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #34 Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:22 am 
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The local lower left corner shape appeared in a few pro games.
Black started at 3-3. Later, W approached with :w1:. Then, :b2: and :w3:.
Later, W attached with :wc::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . 1 . . . 3 . .
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------------[/go]
One continuation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . O . . . O . .
$$ | . . X W 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #35 Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:42 pm 
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EdLee
Dear Mr. Lee. I was put off by it because I was expecting a shoulder Tap at C4. I would guess because in my naivete everyone should play like I expect them to. The attachment while attacking, wasn't that a mistake or rule to never do? I thought you all mentioned it in the game b/t bgreico and I. Whatever the case, didn't expect it and really wanted to attack back. I chose not to, to improve my position on the bottom. Thank you for asking.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #36 Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:48 pm 
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Hi quietimes,
Quote:
The attachment while attacking, wasn't that a mistake or rule to never do?
All Go proverbs are merely guidelines. Sometimes they apply; sometimes they don't.
The trick and difficult part is to judge when to do what. It depends on each situation.
There's almost never never in Go. Almost. :)

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Post #37 Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:54 pm 
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quietimes wrote:
I was expecting a shoulder Tap at C4.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
( For beginners. ) Wishful thinking. The :b1:- :w2: exchange is good for W.

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #38 Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:52 pm 
Dies with sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9
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$$ | . . . , . O . . . O . . . . . , O . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So to be frank, I never know what to do in this situation. Do I follow my greed and attack at K16 or do I hit the side star point and build off my strength in the corner. Both have good and bad outcomes, none of which have ever really worked out for me. I will play a "safer move on the side with a full expectation that black will dominate the K point and give a good showing of owning the board at this early point. Please feel free to include hidden advice for me to read about this quandry at the end of the game.

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #39 Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:24 pm 
Lives with ko

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I notice both of these players misusing the word 'attack'. Both times, no attack was forthcoming. The bottom-left White stones are not under attack, as they are in no danger of dying. As EdLee pointed out, Black's contact play in this area strengthens both players' stones and forms a joseki. The idea behind Black's attachment is to take some of the corner territory for himself while securing his group.

White playing in the middle of the top side doesn't attack anything, but rather breaks up Black's future potential in that area. Since White has space to make a base in both directions, effectively splitting Black's stones (they will have trouble linking up in the future to form a framework), this is called a 'splitting move'.

So no attacks so far, as is normal in most opening scenarios. When one player takes potential eyespace away from the opponent and threatens to surround a group, that will be a proper attack. ;-)

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Post #40 Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:29 pm 
Honinbo
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Phoenix wrote:
I notice both of these players misusing the word 'attack'.
Actually, it's like this:
~20k: ~20k understanding of attack & defense
~10k: ~10k understanding of attack & defense
~5k: ~5k understanding of attack & defense
low dans: low dan understanding of attack & defense
high dans: high dan understanding of attack & defense
pro: pro understanding of attack & defense

Like almost everything else in Go, attack & defense is not digital,
it's not either-or; it's not something they'll either "get" or "not get."
It's a continuum.

What they express is their current level of understanding.

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