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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #41 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:26 pm 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . B O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #42 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:35 pm 
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To Magicwand:
Did you consider cutting?

To Kie:
How will you keep your floating group from becoming heavy? Against strong players these groups always turn into headaches for me.

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #43 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:40 am 
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[quote="Peter Hansmeier"]To Magicwand:
Did you consider cutting?


no i didnt. i believe i can cut but...but i dont think i need to play that cut. i already accomplished my goal of not getting sealed in. also what i have answered is better than the cut(IMO). sorry about lack of variation...it is too complicated to predict what he will play so i will wait till he plays the move

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #44 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:00 am 
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Quote:
How will you keep your floating group from becoming heavy? Against strong players these groups always turn into headaches for me.


It's the art of Shinogi, and one of the most difficult aspects of the game. I can't really give a good answer because I'm still much a novice myself in that area.

But personally, I try to counterattack if possible, whatever you do, try avoid getting pushed around. It's better to die that live in submission. (I mean this literally, I actually often die with groups in my games, even the ones I win.)

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #45 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:18 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I did not expect that. Either way, he forced my hand here, I can only answer with the double hane.

For me, it's better to resign that let black play something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Of course, black will cut now (that's what I said last time, but this time it's even more impossible not to), so I have some options now. I can run at (a) or play at (b).

Of course, playing at (b) means that my 4 stones can be killed, but only at the cost of white getting a sente-ponnuki in the center. If black connects it reduced the liberties of his top group, which makes it easier to run with (a) afterwards.

The only real question here is whether the ponnuki is enough compensation or not. I think so but I'm not 100% sure.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b X O 2 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #46 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:37 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
he is forcing me to play this way.
i have a ladder breaker and it is not a net. i will split his group into two and attack. it might be his mistake to let me cut him as such.

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #47 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:27 am 
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uglyboxer wrote:
unkx80 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Better move? If a then b; if b then a (yeowch!).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X 1 . . . . d . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If b then a, what is whites follow up to c? Black would not be in trouble and white would have to make a low move like d to live, no?


Sorry for the slow response. Anyway, you have a point - I always have a weakness in evaluating this kind of positions.

But I also never like directly attaching to the top. The white group looks baseless and extremely heavy to me as well.

Perhaps an even better way is to leave the three stones as it is now?

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #48 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:31 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #49 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:32 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
this variation might have been tighter...but i dont think i need to be that tight.
i will just be happy with spliting his group. either way i think i have advantage.
soon as i get my sente i will play at "a" and get more points for me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O 1 . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #50 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:44 pm 
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I think that Magicwand should put "Either way, I have the advantage." into his signature. It would save him a lot of typing.

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #51 Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:32 am 
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Harleqin wrote:
I think that Magicwand should put "Either way, I have the advantage." into his signature. It would save him a lot of typing.

Perhaps he's got something there. I swear I gain two stones when I'm in a confident mood. =D

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #52 Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:38 am 
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This game must really have Magicwand worried. He seems to have aged overnight.

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #53 Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:41 am 
Dies in gote

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Chew Terr wrote:
Harleqin wrote:
I think that Magicwand should put "Either way, I have the advantage." into his signature. It would save him a lot of typing.

Perhaps he's got something there. I swear I gain two stones when I'm in a confident mood. =D


Is it that being confident makes you play two stones stronger or that playing two stones stronger makes you confident?

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #54 Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:46 am 
Gosei
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calm wrote:
Chew Terr wrote:
Harleqin wrote:
I think that Magicwand should put "Either way, I have the advantage." into his signature. It would save him a lot of typing.

Perhaps he's got something there. I swear I gain two stones when I'm in a confident mood. =D


Is it that being confident makes you play two stones stronger or that playing two stones stronger makes you confident?


Heh. No, if I'm not in a confident mood, I make moves that I later identify as too passive. I would say pessimism causes me more underplays than optimism does overplays. However, I can look at two different games that are score-wise even, and feel better about one game than the other, based on my mood at the time. Things like having sente for a while and such tend to make me feel more optimistic, even if I knew that that sente was my privelege. Sorry for the tangent.

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #55 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:03 pm 
Lives in sente

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Kie wrote:
It's often possible to win games like this because the oponent makes mistakes and sort of kill themselves, but against strong players, you do need something more. You need the will to win, trying to plan ahead of your oponent, lure him into your strategies and traps and so forth. I lack that right now.

I have some serious training to do to get out of this lazy kind of playing. I don't think I can surpass my current level unless I make some serious change.


I like this game already.

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d) ATTEMPT for TEWARI?
Post #56 Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:11 am 
Dies with sente
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Hello All,
I just entered to watch this thread, as I was busy for many months
and quite absent from GD / Lifein19x19.

Hence, I saw the last moves an are not sure in how much I should hide my comment,
as it is about Kie's double-hane which already happened
and the expected subsequent cut + separation appeared as well.

However, some moves appearing in the diagrams have not yet been played (no matter how obvious they are)

Could s.o. else decide when it is ok to lok at the hidden diagrams?
Perhaps it is safe to wait another 5 game moves?

Kie wrote:
Kie wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I did not expect that. Either way, he forced my hand here, I can only answer with the double hane.

For me, it's better to resign that let black play something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Of course, black will cut now (that's what I said last time, but this time it's even more impossible not to), so I have some options now. I can run at (a) or play at (b).

Of course, playing at (b) means that my 4 stones can be killed, but only at the cost of white getting a sente-ponnuki in the center. If black connects it reduced the liberties of his top group, which makes it easier to run with (a) afterwards.

The only real question here is whether the ponnuki is enough compensation or not. I think so but I'm not 100% sure.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b X O 2 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




I would like to discuss Kie's double-hane.

I only considered (firstly) extension :wc: here,
resp. this is what springs first to miy mind,
as it strengthens the white group with a seemingly 'natural' move.

If Black wishes to continue pushing a-b-c-d,
it could be welcomed, as this is the kind of gained strength (worryfree group) which often pays off much later for White.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . c b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . d . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



As black :bc: is big & disturbing for white's corner group alone
(perhaps W defends with D)
AND
separates it from the outside,
I would ask myself WHY I would block the only bit of route to the outside (P),
resp. cut in black's position (Q)?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . d . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . p . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . q . . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As I can expect :bc: , I would (as white) not like to push Black around my own position
AND get cut @ X:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . d . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . p 2 X O x . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . q . 1 W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Kie critized his/her own connection :w1: .
However, I prefer it over the played double-hane for the reasons given below:

The connection :w1: has a (indeed slow) honte feeling (for me).

However, as a plus (IMO), still the weaknesses P, Q in black's area would remain.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . p . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . q . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Perhaps Black would play
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . p . X O W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . q . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


_____________________________________________________________________________

If Kie can handle all the three cut groups (3; = D15, H12, J15) in the game
then perhaps still everthing can be ok,
and the difference is just a matter of style.


_____________________________________________________________________________

Are there any opinions on Kie's double-hane, connection or nobi?

_________________
Greetings,
Tommie

3dan EGF (AGA no 13477) || Tommie on KGS: 'June'|| DGS: 'Zhi Laohu' 纸老虎 = 'paper tiger' || Senseis : http://senseis.xmp.net/?tderz ||
ENFP (MBTI) - 'Find your own style within the Fundamentals of Go! '

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