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Offline EdLee
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Post #41 Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:15 pm 
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@Aphelion
Aphelion wrote:
Why not push through? It seems to be worth a few more points without really destroying any aji, and gives you 'a' endgame.
Good question. That's a standard bad habit.
Killing that one liberty removes some bad aji for B and creates more bad aji for W.
You never know when that extra liberty will come in handy. :mrgreen:
There are many variations and follow-ups from the joseki position; W is not concerned about (a) now.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 2 4 . . . .
$$ | . a X X 1 X . O . .
$$ | . . O O 3 O . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
It's like in the following joseki when W pushes with (a) and B blocks at (b) --
it hurts W and helps B (e.g. removes W (c) aji):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Reference joseki
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . b . . . . .
$$ | . 8 2 4 a 0 . c . .
$$ | . 6 3 O 5 . . . . ,
$$ | . 7 9 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . b 2 . . . .
$$ | . . X X a X . O . .
$$ | . . O O 1 O . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
In the game, topazg played the correct joseki move :b2:;
W would not do the (a)-(b) exchange now.
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #42 Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:06 am 
Tengen
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Aphelion wrote:
EdLee:

Why not push through? It seems to be worth a few more points without really destroying any aji, and gives you 'a' endgame.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X X 1 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 3 O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

yes you can play that way also.
they are both played by professionals.
ed already explained his side of the story.
now ..i have seen top professionals answer as below.
surely if is at least 1 point better for black with liberty filled.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 2 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline EdLee
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Post #43 Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:55 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
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Post #44 Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:15 pm 
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Again, :w18: was non-trivial for me.
If the double approach stone is on the 3rd line at :bc: instead of (x),
W has the choices of (a) connect, (b) extend, (c) 1-space pincer, (x) shoulder-hit the :bc: stone,
and possibly many others:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm18
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . X X . X . O . .
$$ | . b O O O O a . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . B . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . x . . . . . .
$$ | . . c . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
But :b11: is at (x), so I want to try the kosumi and see what happens. :)
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #45 Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:50 pm 
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This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by: Aphelion
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #46 Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:08 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I've been trying to decide whether that was a trick play, an overplay, aji-keshi, or just a good move. I think it's aji-keshi:

There's not enough theory for this to be a formal trick play. It's not thin or in danger of severe counter-attack, so I wouldn't call it overplay. It clearly makes miai of the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


"a" is downright frightening. Letting White play that is crazy (White gets to double hane in sente, then fix that cut I want to play at G16), and I can't afford to let that happen unless "b" is even worse. However, "b" doesn't worry me, it's entirely the wrong thing to be trying to do with this wall I think. For one thing, I can play as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W W W W a . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 5 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now, I still have the 3-3 invasion in the lower left, and I have a very hard to kill group. Morever, the marked White wall is now next to useless, and the cut at "a" is still awkward to handle. I may also inclined to simply ignore it if White plays there, or to do something in the lower left instead, as responding at all simply makes Black kind of semi-heavy, and my pincer stone will already have achieved it's purpose. I haven't decided, we'll see what he does.

So, why aji-keshi? Because he will never get to play this end-game now. It's not that big, but a loss of a few points is a loss of a few points, and he still has to come back and fix that cut at "a"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 1 X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 W O O O O a . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The next few moves will really require some thought though.

This post by topazg was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
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Offline EdLee
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Post #47 Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:24 am 
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First feeling is the pincer :wc:; have to think. :study:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
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Post #48 Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:06 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
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Post #49 Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:38 pm 
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One of the first variations -- although W has (d), the top still feels a bit thin for W.
For example, if B (b), W (a); if B (a), W (c), B (b), etc.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O b . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . a . c . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 2 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
In the following, since W has the :w6: :b7: exchange, if :b11: at (e), W has the strong cap at (f).
By comparison, :w5: above seems a lot thinner (because of the (b) weakness).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Reference variation
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 8 1 . 5 . 7 .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 . 4 . 6 .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 . e . f .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
(p)
:w20: is lukewarm; it does not quite fix the weakness at (a),
and the outside influence is not very useful.
But if W just fixes (a) directly, it feels a bit slow:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . X X X . X . O . .
$$ | . . O O O O a . . ,
$$ | . O . . . . . 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
If W pincers, then after :w5:, (b) and (c) are miai:
if B jumps out to (b), W can connect with (c), then B has a floating group; or,
if B splits W with (d), and W caps with (b), then it does not look too good for B;
which means the original :bc: may not be good:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . X X X . X . O . .
$$ | . . O O O O . . . ,
$$ | . O . . . . . 5 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . d . B 4 2 . b . .
$$ | . . c . 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Simply connecting out with :w1: is another idea --
it makes :b2: not very severe, as W can fight;
two Chinese pros played this :w1: in 2009:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . X X X . X 3 O . . .
$$ | . . O O O O 2 . . 5 .
$$ | . O . . . . 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Last edited by EdLee on Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #50 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:18 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, this one does surprise me. I have the perfect lower left approach now, he's still not quite fixed the cut, and I'm not really a target any more. I presume there's something I've missed that he had to defend against?
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Offline EdLee
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Post #51 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:02 am 
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First feeling:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #52 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:53 am 
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OGS: magicwand
for obs only:
below is my first feeling.
going low will let him out too easy.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . C W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline unkx80
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #53 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:24 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I would be inclined to play :b1: here, and treat the marked black stone lightly.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #54 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:48 pm 
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I've decided I probably should also post the moves I rejected. If anyone wants to ask why about any of them, please do :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . d . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #55 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:59 pm 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm22
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
(p)
- unkx80's idea for B to treat :bc: lightly and jump to (a) instead of :b21: is good;
- my first feeling of blocking at (b) was also better than :w22::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . X X X . X . O .
$$ | . . O O O O . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . B . O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . a . . . . . .
$$ | . . b . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


Last edited by EdLee on Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #56 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:13 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm22
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yeah, that makes sense. I chose where I did because this extension from White's corner (and that's what I'd have played, too) still allows me to make some stability on the edge. Had White played where I just played, I'd take the 3-3 and then scrap my way out, and those lines all looked favourable for me. So, I still have some aji to play with at E2 or D3, an open skirt to aim at with N2 (although N6 may be more interesting depending on the top, which is clearly the biggest area now), and a mostly stable group.

Much of my strategy over the last few moves has been trying to find ways of making that White wall relatively meaningless - I think it's getting close to having been achieved. Not many points for quite a few stones.

I don't feel ahead, but I don't feel like I'm struggling to stay above water either. The game feels ok for me at the moment.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #57 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:16 pm 
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Some ideas:
After :b10:, the lower left becomes thin; e.g. (a), (b), etc.:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 4 8 9 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Similarly, after :b2:, aji at (c),(d),(e), etc.:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Locally, B has an open skirt:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The cut at :b2: may be premature?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O 2 . . 6 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 7 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #58 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:21 pm 
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Ed: Topazg just gave a brief summary of how he felt about the game. Would you be willing to do the same (in a hide tag)? Would you mind explaining how you feel about the way the game is going and any concerns or goals you may have at the moment?

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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #59 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:40 pm 
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Chew Terr: Yes, let me gather my thoughts. :)
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #60 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:47 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm24
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Seems a big shared area: either W can make eye space here, or B can.

Another idea is to try to fix the aji at (a), then :w3: first, but it seems to let B off too easily:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O a . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . 2 X 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Board index » L19²GO (Malkovich) » 1-on-1 Malkovich games

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