Hey.. so we are #87 right now, ketchup playing against me.
We decided that we will play with 6.5 komi.
Joseki dictionaries are not allowed, so it can(!) get interesting
I will take black.
Have fun ketchup.
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| 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2647 |
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| Author: | Kayres [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
Hey.. so we are #87 right now, ketchup playing against me. We decided that we will play with 6.5 komi. Joseki dictionaries are not allowed, so it can(!) get interesting I will take black. Have fun ketchup.
Komoku, a common start of course. I like to play solidly and am more the territorial player, althogh i do not like my opponent to build large moyos. This sounds like I want too much But I think it is important to keep a certain balance in the game of course. Let's just see.I will decide if I play san-san or another komoku or even a hoshi. I don't really think about anything else for the moment. |
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| Author: | ketchup [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
GL HF GGGGG
I never knew having a diagram was going to be this difficult to get used to. Gotta go read that diagram post. Honestly, I don't really pay much attention to my fuseki. Mostly, this is due to my playing blitz too much. I always end up fighting it out, and forcing my opponent to create weak groups. Most times, I get away with being a bit over aggressive. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. I want to do so here as well, but I do not know if it will happen. I also want to play a bit unorthodox, but I think my opponent will play too solidly for that to give me any real benefit besides an early disadvantage if I mess up somewhere. Hopefully my attacks are much stronger than in blitz, so I can actually benefit from them. I hope to take my time when deciding these moves. I prefer one 4-4 stone, as I always enjoy that flexibility it provides later on. |
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| Author: | Kayres [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
Haha yeah it's confusing in the beginning. I need to get used to it too.
I decided to play another komoku. My opponent picked hoshi, which I tihnk does not tell me much because it is quite flexible. Meaning that he can still play a more territory oriented game or aim for a big moyo. I think it will go like this:
of course 1 can also be at a. However then I will play b instead of 3. If he plays a pincer, I will certainly jump. I don't think a san-san invasion would be good because his wall would face the open side of my komoku.
I think this here would be great for me, I will be aiming for this:
later i can look forward to exploiting the aji at f. His corner is not safe yet. and i have a strong group on the side of my komoku. Well let's see what happens edit: hahahah i hope not many people see this it looks interesting though. I mixed up black and white with the numbers |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
Just so you know, you can put a W before the c in your go diagram to let white have the first move. |
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| Author: | Kayres [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
Dusk Eagle wrote: Just so you know, you can put a W before the c in your go diagram to let white have the first move. yes I found it out afterwards. quite good to know  thank you very much anyway
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| Author: | ketchup [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
I want to make this interesting for me. I am not too familiar with what will eventually happen in terms of what direction this move will take me. I only hope it's interesting. Adding to that, if he approaches high or low, I will most likely pincer due to the 3-4 stone above. That's more of a feeling than actual reading. Most of this stuff is just me experimenting, and learning. patience! |
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| Author: | Kayres [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
As you could read, I did not really expect this. Obviously because his open side is facing the closed (strong) side of my komoku. It actually showed me that white wants to get a shimari. I imagine if i played around a, he would maybe tenuki, or, which is more probable, try to keep sente and get a shimari around b.
However I don't like to attack shimaris or invade them with probes or the like, and that's why I played an high approach. One possible outcome would be this:
White then has the opportunity to play moves like a or b. But I am alright with this because as you can see my right side is quite safe because he obviously cannot play a severe approach against my corner from the right side. If he decides to play b here, I think a keima at g would be nice for me. But, as I said, I expect a pincer. There are really many branches you can look into here and I am sure a pincer will make this game quite complicated since we won't look up any josekis. I will rely on my reading skills and play like this if he pincers:
After this i think there are many things that can happen. If 1 is at h, I will play 2 still. But, as you can see, he can of course also play a high pincer. I will think about that if it is the case. It probably will be, since a low pincer facing the stronger side of my komoku on top would not be that promising territory-wise. |
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| Author: | ketchup [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
I want to try this out. High pincer is probably better(I think the 2 space high pincer joseki probably would work out decently here for white), but I want to see what happens with low and far. I'm thinking too much, and trying to gain sente, but I realize this is not that easy especially with the pincer. Given my joseki knowledge as well, I couldn't find any sente sequences I felt comfortable with, so I might as well try to play more lightly than normal for experimentation purposes. It's not much of a pincer is it? When I watch these malkovich threads, I always wondered why people do not play normal. Now I know! There is no reason! |
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| Author: | Kayres [ Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
Okay let's make one thing clear first: I wouldn't even have dreamt about this move . It is really interesting. I love it, I like games where new things happen and everything looks spontanesous and natural, not mechanic.However I really had to think about this for a long time. I have no clue if my move is good, but it is the best i could come up with. I am going to show you first, why I did not play any other moves I considered: This could be one outcome. But I did not like it that much because my top right corner seems too lonely right now. I can't find good moves for the situation there. But I of course do get something for 7, but it does not give me such a good feeling since I cannot push him down very well with 7 or similiar moves, and, if I could, I would still face his hoshi.
Another move I did not like that much is 1 here. I don't know how this would go actually, but it probably will be something like the following. Now his move seems to be great. Maybe this is what he wants:
So I decided to play the move above and pressure and enclose his corner. I need to do this in sente and then approach his 4-4 stone on the left. Maybe like this:
This is also not a situation that feels great but I cannot think of a better move than 1. And it still feels alright to me. It could also go this way:
I don't feel I can put much pressure on his stones on the right side, but it does give me something to attack and make profit with. I would love to play 7 at a but it does not seem to work because of him answering at b. Note: I won't show how it does not work, I think this goes too much into detail, which is not really bad but in my opinion, (and this goes to the weaker players especially) it sometimes is nice to read such things on your own. I will leave out many sequences in the course of the play because of this. Move 7 and this game becomes a little difficult and interesting. I like it . |
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| Author: | ketchup [ Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
If anyone is kibitzing, please let me know if my comments are good enough. If not, I'll try to expand on them. As I said before, it is very difficult for me to gain sente on the bottom, and the white stone on the right is far away enough that this tenuki makes sense(to me). I also feel he needs two? more stones to kill me outright in that corner, so it's honestly not worth responding to at the moment. If he actually does try to take the corner, his choices are pretty narrow. I feel the aji is enough right now to step away and get bigger plays. I like the idea of destroying his choices more than him destroying my one corner. This seems like a faster way to play. I also(maybe too much) want to take away the initiative from him. If I can achieve that, I will feel ahead. CHAOS! |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
Comments seem good so far. |
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| Author: | FlameBlade [ Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
Looks like I could enjoy this game...fuseki's already interesting. |
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| Author: | walleye [ Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
Kayres wrote: This could be one outcome. But I did not like it that much because my top right corner seems too lonely right now. I can't find good moves for the situation there. But I of course do get something for 7, but it does not give me such a good feeling since I cannot push him down very well with 7 or similiar moves, and, if I could, I would still face his hoshi.
for Kayres: I'm not saying your keima in the game is a bad move, but...
this seems like a decent development for Black. What was your reason for rejecting it? White might play like this and he gets  which is pretty big.
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| Author: | Kayres [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
For walleye: I think you are right in saying that this is a really good development for me. But there are two things I did not like that much. For example, I think 5 is usually at a. But I can't play it here of course. Second point is that I thought he might omit 8 and play 9 instead. And I think his group on bottom right has such a good eyeshape, that I could only enclose it. Or push it down. And, maybe something quite stupid actually , I find these shimaris relatively boring, now that I would have had two in the game. I like approaching a hoshi with a komoku in my back. It's too simple for me to like it I guess.
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| Author: | Kayres [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
Alright guys, another move I really really did not expect at all. I will give up being surprised because a) it has no use at all! b) I need to get used to it. Actually this is one position I imagined earlier, just with a different order:
That's also why I replied to his move with this approach. What I think is his plan is the following:
Something like this I think. Now again, his move in the middle of the right side seems to be a good move. For me it seems that many things he could do would make his stone on the right side suffer. So let's see how he is going to decide next. I can't help it but say that his stone a little under pressure. If I look at his stones and mine, we can see that his stones are more or less scattered. They do not seem to have any kind of connection. I will keep on playing safe as I did |
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| Author: | ketchup [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
I'm unsure here. I do not think this is the best play black could have made, considering how weak I am all around. I'd like to poke at the natural weak point of s14 in some way, but I think it's more reasonable to first support my weak group on top. I really want to play s14 as a probe though, but it seems to hurt my own stones too much to allow it. I guess you can call it aji-keshi? I tried to read through a couple of the moves around that area, but all of them are lacking a stone at a certain point. Also, I think the way white's move limits black's movement is best I can do right now. If I was black, honestly, I'd ignore/semi-ignore my move here. Like a jump at p13 would be interesting in the long run. This bothers me a lot more than anything else. I wonder if I am playing too optimistic for white. I guess the results will show if I am or not. As a final note, am I worried about my r10 stone here? Not really. I think I can play it lightly, and it will be okay. The timing for a move at/around r5 is definitely getting bigger though. Hope I get it first!Patience? |
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| Author: | Kayres [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
Hmm.. I needed to think a lot about this here.. What I was expecting was this joseki, where white first makes the marked exchange:
This way I would have sente, he would have nice influence on top with a bit of territory. Although his influence could be in a better position, e.g. when the open side of my komoku was facing it, I think this is still good for white. Normally I don't like this for black but it seemed okay to me. I think the best thing here for me would be that I have sente + I put a little bit more pressure on  .I knew this joseki, it's an easy one, but what made me think more deeply is the exchange you do first before you attach underneath the komoku. Why do you do this? This is a very important point. Memorizing joseki is a good thing, because it can help you learn good shapes. But since I only memorized it, I now do not know why you would play this exchange first. So I needed to think. I came to the conclusion that it should prevent me from jumping. If I jumped when he played the kikashi against my 2-space extension, it would look like this:
I would not be able to jump here. And I am sure he could get the corner easily with something like 7 or even b. Although I can attack his stone on the right side fiercely now, I don't like this position. It seems that he got too much. And he can still escape with c or the like if I tried to attack it. This seems good, no discussion. But his corner seems also really big. And  is still not dead yet imo.So actually all he gave me was the opportunity to decide between two options for me. Jumping, with a follow-up like here:
Or, jumping, and then him playing the kikashi:
Now this looks a bit better for me. I have techniques around a or I even get some really nice outside moves with b or similiar. This is the other option, but I thought I would be too low afterwards to attack . It seemed to slow and soft.I even thought that he could play something like d first to threaten to connect with @, and then play 4, or even completely omit 4.
But I think I am not in a position I should be sad about to be in I hope my explanations are alright. If it is too much, please tell me. Or just say whatever you want about it. Gimme the critcism!  |
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| Author: | ketchup [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
This black move is funny. I thought I'd be more afraid of this move, but the more I think about it, the less I find it being the right/good idea. I feel pretty safe on top. My stones for the top, are in a position of power compared to the black stone that should have been more secure. I think this move is slightly too early in terms of timing. Now, I'm somewhat forced to settle the position on the bottom. What I'm aiming for here is to reinforce the white stones on the right side while leaving enough aji to work with something on the bottom later on. Of course, black can make this difficult for me, but that's cool. That's what I'm playing for. I wonder how much my opponent is reading compared to me. I do not think I read far enough, but we'll see here by what happens. I find this move to be too "fancy", and I question to myself if it's the right one. It FEELS good to actually use this type of move, but I wonder if it's the correct one.Create some confusion. |
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| Author: | Kayres [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
Ok. I am NOT suprised. .. k now seriously where is the hidden camera.when I first saw this move I was like  I guess by now you could say that he is in an experimentation-phase. This move does not feel really good, it feels more like an emergency plan you have to play when you do not have any other choices left. What he is aiming for is clear, he wants to settle his right group. I guess he is aiming for this exchange:
Now you can call it a "group". But to me it does not seem to be settled yet.. I can still try to separate it later on. And even if I should not be able to do that, I have a nice position on bottom left and on top right. I often get to play such games. And what I do here is I try to make small but solid steps and stay patient and calm. I believe that there is a certain balance and flow in a game that can be destroyed very easily. You can imagine that as building trust for the goban, and if you are too greedy or disappoint the flow and balance, things won't turn out very well in the end. I looked into several moves here, like these:
a seems quite alright, you usually try to hane when your opponent attaches, but it kind of felt too immature at this state of the game. And white also gets an opportunity to cross-cut, where his corner stone is helping him much better than my keima on the left. b seemed very solid, it had a good feeling too. But you would usually play this if your group is in acute danger or you have to run while protecting any cuts. It also gave him some sente when he tries to connect underneath. c seemed interesting to me.. actually I was thinking about whether I should play c or the move i made. It obviously aims to hurt his corner a bit more. But I did not like the aji it could set up later.. So I decided to play a, maybe slow, but patient nobi. I will have sente then and I can play the big move on top right. If he plays a tenuki after my nobi, I will follow him and see where he will lead me to.
I feel comfortable at this stage of the game so I won't be aggressive or too active. Let's give him what he wants and see what his plans are. |
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| Author: | ketchup [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k) |
This is my style. To live with all(in sente!), to try to kill everything else Also, next move once I get the chance has to be(for me) at p4(see below). I was thinking about which move to go: the reinforcement/ pressure on the right side(if possible), or the reinforcement for the bottom group. At the moment though, reinforcing the right side has more merit than the bottom. The right side getting stronger for white hurts all the groups around the area(maybe even my own! hah). Reinforcing my bottom stone, makes it so that it hurts my own stones more than anything else for solid "profit". Due to this, it feels too early to do so. I think there will be a timing when I can say "Okay, that's settled, let me FINALLY play this move". If I played at p4 now, I think this is the best way for black to play, and it does not look so good for white at all, especially if you consider I'd lose sente for white's life/safety(cut at a).
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