ZvP is my best matchup, so you're just in trouble.
I didn't realize Shaddy had played it. Sorry to repeat for you. I'm going to guess that I'm going to play this a bit more aggressively than your previous time through it.
Have fun.
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| 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2801 |
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| Author: | CSamurai [ Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
Playing even, given that my rank is getting stale. I've only played a few games on KGS in the past months. Comments are closed, but Chew and I are going to make an effort to open them up as we go when we feel they're no longer relevant. Please, please, make comments, ask questions. Particularly ask questions. I'm never sure how much analysis people want to see from a mid sdk game. We're playing without the use of joseki dictionaries, and komi is .5 in Chew's favour, with it already added to the prisoner count. I've decided to do a little experimental fuseki here. No, it's not mirror go, but it is tengen play, simply because I haven't played tengen in about a year. The strategies are different, and I want to see how I do with them. I'm going to make some hidden comments about how I'd like for the game to procede.
Influenced by all the crazy opening popping up in dan games, I figured I'd take a crack at one of the harderst openings in the book, and one that almost everyone tries at some point.. Tengen gives you influence, which is like a magical force that does nothing at all for kyus. So, let's pretend I passed. If white plays normally, and I play normally, I'm ahead, right?
Black likes this. mostly he likes this because white played /too/ normally. White chose 4.4 points, which are good for? Influence. When black has taken tengen, you very often see white make the mistake of continuing to play for influence. The best you can say here is that white might be trying to balance black's influence, but chances are, tengen will continue to negatively influence the productiveness of white's 4.4 stones. Black has the opposite gain. In playing an influence based opening, black works well with his tengen stone. What if white plays more conservatively?
Black also likes this. With tengen, he can play aggressive approaches to the 4.3 stones. Since he is playing for influence, the high approaches are ideal to work with tengen. White can have the corners, if Black can take the world. The real key though is that this game, after the play of tengen, is not about territory. It's about murder and chasing things around and using your influence. Influence, in as much as it ever makes anyone territory, is used to make territory by attacking and chasing the opponent. Killing is often a bonus portion of influence based play. I'm not going to be peaceful in this game, and with tengen, my goal is to make white pay for anything they want to keep. |
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| Author: | amnal [ Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
I don't think it's really true that the 'best you can say' about white's stones is that they are limiting black's influence. Black is fine, white is fine, it's a game of go. |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
Man, what is it with Malkovich games and people using tengen against me. First Shaddy, now you. =D Thanks a lot for the game! I won't wish you luck, but I will say I hope you enjoy the game! Okay, so ZvP is probably my most comfortable matchup since I switched to Zerg. As long as I keep scouting and reacting, maybe this'll turn out okay. Okay, so I wanted a territorial stone (so I get something solid, rather than eventually having my corner stolen under a 4-4 stone and needing to try something in the middle). I reject the 3-3, because I don't want to give my opponent huge thickness that could potentially work with the tengen stone later. Let's let things develop a bit to see how it goes. For new players, tengen is the middle intersection on the board. If you have any questions, please ask. [starcraft]Okay, just going to get early gas, 14 pool, get speedlings to scout, then grab my natural. Knowledge is power, and I want to be safe enough to be able to control things later.[/starcraft] |
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| Author: | CSamurai [ Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
ZvP is my best matchup, so you're just in trouble.
I didn't realize Shaddy had played it. Sorry to repeat for you. I'm going to guess that I'm going to play this a bit more aggressively than your previous time through it. Have fun. |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
If I tenuki, I feel like black will drive the game into some craziness like taisha, and then use his ladder against me. I'll just play simply, try to resolve things, and keep things sensible... for now. If I can keep his center stone from playing a huge role, then it will be a waste. More aggressive/scary than Shaddy? Yeesh. |
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| Author: | CSamurai [ Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
Well, I took a glance over Shady. The good news is, I don't plan to play side star points for my first several moves.
Joseki Trigger
Here the joseki branches based on white's move, so I figure I'll wait to see your move. Thoughts, Comments, and etc. So, the other option here are the avalanche josekis, which, while I'm interested in, I'm not at all comfortable enough to play one this early on an open board. Yes, ladders work for me, so in theory, it's a good push, but it's complicated, and white can increase that complication greatly. I don't need complication. If white plays standard..
I'm thrilled with this. Black's stones work well together, and if white plays any corner but the bottom right, I can take it and strongly sketch a side. If white plays the bottom corner, I can approach and push to make a moyo. If white decides to play more aggressively..
9 is a powerful punishment. Eager to see which direction white chooses. |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
This is what I was aiming at when I said I wanted to settle quickly. I now have reservations about this, however, as I think this is supposed to be played as a 4th line joseki? If that's true, then this is less efficient. Regardless, I'll be settled, and my opponent cannot easily tenuki. If he does not tenuki, I will probably pincer immediately. |
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| Author: | CSamurai [ Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
Playing calmly I see. Very composed.
As predicted, I'm happy with this, even if white takes the bottom right. |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
Again, trying to keep simple, logical, and territorial. 3-4 for stability/territory. I choose diagonal so that I can reduce anything my opponent attempts in the bottom right. I play on the southernmost 3-4 so that I can deter an approach from that side a little. Yeah, I'm told calm isn't my normal style. We'll see how long I can keep it up. =D |
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| Author: | CSamurai [ Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
So, it's entirely reasonable for white to choose to play this corner. If I take the lower corner, he takes the upper corner, and I don't like that so much. So, instead, we're going to play the same approach, but with a different plan. Let's take a look at what happens if white plays the same attachment under..
I'm not really looking for this result. White gets a strong corner, and I'm left with a group that doesn't really work with the other group. It does work with the center stone, but it's not generally what I'm looking for. So, what are some other options? I mentioned the avalanche earlier..
If black plays 6 at b, the cut at 7 stands. 6 at 7 and I calmly continue my life with something like c. If things play this way, I can see arguments for both A and B for move 9, but don't know which is correct. I'm likely to play at A. Some other things white might try..
This is OK, I suppose, but not a preferred outcome for me. Still, white doesn't have much here that I can't pressure later. white gets sente though, so it's possible for me to leave that stone like this...
White may also play..
a pincer at a or b, making me select a different joseki. If this happens, I'll aim for outside influence and sente, hoping to take the lower right corner. |
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| Author: | Aphelion [ Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
This feels like better use of the tengen stone. In game Black feels overconcentrated. Note that Black can still get one of the remaining corners. |
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| Author: | Numsgil [ Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
I actually really like this for black. White has territory, but he's really low and his two groups don't work together at all. Black doesn't have a lot of territory, but he's split the board in twain and basically controls the whole board and can dictate the flow of the game. I won't go so far as to say that white is behind, but he's certainly not ahead. But I doubt Chew will play like that anyway. |
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| Author: | Mnemonic [ Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
Numsgil wrote:
I actually really like this for black. White has territory, but he's really low and his two groups don't work together at all. Black doesn't have a lot of territory, but he's split the board in twain and basically controls the whole board and can dictate the flow of the game. I won't go so far as to say that white is behind, but he's certainly not ahead. But I doubt Chew will play like that anyway. I'd like to agree with Numsgil here. Although looking at it rationally, white has more secure points: I'd rather be black on this board, just to feel my opponent squirm. I think Black has the psychological edge and at least at DDK level that counts for a lot. |
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| Author: | Aphelion [ Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
Numsgil wrote:
I actually really like this for black. White has territory, but he's really low and his two groups don't work together at all. Black doesn't have a lot of territory, but he's split the board in twain and basically controls the whole board and can dictate the flow of the game. I won't go so far as to say that white is behind, but he's certainly not ahead. But I doubt Chew will play like that anyway. I think black is a little overconcentrated in that diagram. IMO the tengen stone starts feeling redundant and a little slow. IMO, the extensions from both top right and bottom right josekis aren't so important because the tengen stone mitigates the impact of a pincer. Imagine if 1 or 2 of them were at the empty 4-4's instead! |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
Like I said, don't really want the taisha, when the ladders belong to my opponent. So I'm playing something fairly normal/simplish. Honestly, I don't know a lot of 3-4 joseki, so I'll stick with fairly simple ones if I can help it. |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
I think Chew is forgotting what the taisha actually looks like. It starts from a black 5-3 stone, not 5-4. |
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| Author: | Aphelion [ Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
My move:
I think with the tengen stone Black is almost obligated to play something like this. |
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| Author: | CSamurai [ Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
You know, I used to panic when I saw this pincer.
This is not joseki. But it is something I've wanted to try out. I'm going to give him a bit more in the corner than I'd like due to the pincer stone, but some things can't be avoided. Why do this if it's not joseki? Because I don't know a proper joseki from the low pincer to do what I want. The joseki I prefer, usually, is this..
Black encloses the pincer, playing for influence. Unfortunately, this wrecks the bottom for me, and encourages white to play in the last corner. 4 can be at A without an altered result. But, I'd prefer to end up with something more like..
this sequence, where I play a, white plays b, and I get C, is more or less what I'd like to shoot for. The cut at D is troublesome, but unlikely to be large enough for white to play immediately. We'll see where it goes from here, though, white has many options for how to respond to my overplay. |
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| Author: | Shaddy [ Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
CSamurai wrote: You know, I used to panic when I saw this pincer.
This is not joseki. But it is something I've wanted to try out. I'm going to give him a bit more in the corner than I'd like due to the pincer stone, but some things can't be avoided. Why do this if it's not joseki? Because I don't know a proper joseki from the low pincer to do what I want. The joseki I prefer, usually, is this..
Black encloses the pincer, playing for influence. Unfortunately, this wrecks the bottom for me, and encourages white to play in the last corner. 4 can be at A without an altered result. But, I'd prefer to end up with something more like..
this sequence, where I play a, white plays b, and I get C, is more or less what I'd like to shoot for. The cut at D is troublesome, but unlikely to be large enough for white to play immediately. We'll see where it goes from here, though, white has many options for how to respond to my overplay. Wishful thinking! Don't forget your opponent's forcing moves.
This looks a bit too good for white: he has a large corner and potential on the left and sente, since black should probably play an extension next (if black just takes the corner w can split the side). Then w can take the lower right. |
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| Author: | CSamurai [ Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k) |
We seem to be generating a lot of comments. I always get nervous when dan level players start commenting on my moves. |
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