Fear not, Chew. I'm watching this one.
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| Yithril vs. Chew Terr http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=4036 |
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| Author: | yithril [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
This is the match of the century folks, so grab your popcorn! I thought a 4 stone game would be a crowd pleaser and more educational. Have a good game! |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
Thank you very much for the game! 4 stones seems like an intimidatingly small amount. Eager for the game, regardless! Hokay, this is scary. It's a great opportunity though, so here goes. My goal is to play this the way handicap games (in my eyes) are meant to be played: as though they're an even game where you happen to be ahead. That avoids playing the sort of passive 'I can afford this because of the handicap' moves that Kageyama ragged on. If I legitimately think I can play passively and win, that's one thing. However, that's a judgement for late-game, not the opening. I'm going to try to play as though I'm playing someone my level who I respect. Regarding the move itself: stronger players tend to love this high move, as it tends a bit more to complications, later. However, it works with the bottom right stone, and pressures the approach a bit. I used to be intimidated by the high response, so I try to take it now, when it's reasonable. |
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| Author: | judicata [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
Fear not, Chew. I'm watching this one.
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| Author: | yithril [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
Lol. I know I should give you more, but I see handicap games as more of a learning experience and you do not learn as much in 6 stone + games because White ends up playing weird, strange shapes that never come up and strategies that are only meant to confuse you. In a 4 stone game I feel like White doesn't have to steam roll his opponent, but rather finesse him 
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
Oh, don't worry. If you'd challenged me even, I'd have played that, and lost it just as happily. Handicap doesn't matter that much, so much as the practice from playing and the lessons learned.
Hmmm, to allow Mount Fuji at the top, or not? I decided to allow it, rather than to go for the goofball pincer fights that could occur if I do a two-space high pincer or such. Those are fine, but I feel this is reasonable, as well, and it's simple enough that I understand it better. I'm taking low here, since I'm expecting Mount Fuji, which will make it harder to pressure the top stones. That means I'll have a more stable corner, and white will take gote, allowing me to play on the right side to secure my more ambitious extension. That'll make a double wing on the bottom look great, or a knight's move in the bottom right, so I'd predict 7, shown above. This is just my guess of the sequence, but who knows? Regardless, this should be fine. |
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| Author: | yithril [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
Phew, called it. I considered pincering, perhaps with L16 or M17. Is there one in particular that you anyone would have recommended? |
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| Author: | yithril [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
Black 6 is an excellent point. Good balance with his other stones and pre-empts an attack. I considered approaching the other way to break up his territorial framework but I decided against it. Gotta be patient. |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
Okay, I could have done the same on the bottom that I did on the top, but now I figure I have a little more on the right to support a bit of aggression. If W runs out, I can try to make territory on the right fluidly. I doubt W will take the corner here because it may not be enough with the handicap. I feel like taking Q6 directly would let W settle too easily (so maybe I should've pincered on top, after all), without doing enough to seal the right side. R10 is nice, but I don't know if it's enough to support both sides. For example, O10 would make me choose. I could fight by counter-capping, but that's going a bit deeper than we have to right here, necessarily. Anyhow, this pincer makes sense to me and seems reasonable on this board, so I'll take it. |
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| Author: | yithril [ Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
Nice Okay so, pincer eh? Invading the corner hands him perfect thickness so we're not going to do that. Jumping out helps him make territory easily. So a double approach is the only option.
This is the easy way. It'd make his side stone less effective. My move in game aims at a similar result. However...
Black outnumbers me on this side of the board. If you have a side stone like Black does, this is a good move and Black can get a good result with some fighting.
This cut is complicated but the fighting favors Black. |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
Hmmm, it was that or jumping out. Those were basically the two options, since I wrote of him taking the corner directly. Now he may, though. Basically, I want to lean on one side to attack the other. I'm leaning on this one because it's low, so I have the better attachment aji. Unless I'm mistaken, that's exactly why he played the more recent stone high: so I'm better off attaching to this side. |
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| Author: | yithril [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
I believe this is normal. Regardless, my shape is just strong enough that his stone cannot break out. These moves give him a bit more aji, but I don't see a fatal amount, yet. |
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| Author: | yithril [ Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
So far nothing but joseki... |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
Dealing with it simply. Granting white stability in the corner is unhappy and unfortunate, but I see no way to avoid it. Now I'm hoping that W will stabilize in the corner with gote (IE with R3) so that I can tenuki to claim a big point elsewhere. Obviously I still have some advantage on the board, but I seem to be bleeding handicap gradually. If I do get sente, I'll have to look around carefully, to consider direction of play. That said, if my opponent doesn't take R3, it's huge for me. edit: Apparently it's too early to type without typos. |
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| Author: | phrax [ Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
Chew Terr wrote:
Dealing with it simply. Granting white stability in the corner is unhappy and unfortunate, but I see no way to avoid it. Now I'm hoping that W will stabilize in the corner with gote (IE with R3) so that I can tenuki to claim a big point elsewhere. Obviously I still have some advantage on the board, but I seem to be bleeding handicap gradually. If I do get sente, I'll have to look around carefully, to consider direction of play. That said, if my opponent doesn't take R3, it's huge for me. edit: Apparently it's too early to type without typos.
SDK thoughts: I wonder if above is better for black (versus Chew's 14 below), to put more pressure on splitting a possible white jump to 'a'. Also, the below diagram seems to provide white with better opportunities. But I'm not sure if my thought process is flawed. Any thoughts if its a good idea or horribly wrong?
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| Author: | Violence [ Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
@phrax Ok, I could be a douchebag dan player and say that Chew Terr is playing joseki and leave it at that. But of course, that doesn't actually answer your question at all, so here's how I would explain it.
This sequence is normal, and black tenuki's.
Can black tenuki here?
I would call this almost sente for white, if not now, then in the future, the cut becomes a big problem. Even if black responds to it, the cut becomes dependent on a ladder. Black's position here turns very fragile and weak.
So... you might have to respond here, it's at least a prudent play, I would say. But then.... don't you feel stupid?
It's like you exchanged 1 for 2, and then played 3. It feels a bit herp derpy, no? That's how I see it, anyway. |
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| Author: | Redundant [ Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
@phrax Violence did a good job explaining this joseki. It's good to know that this joseki has a follow up sequence like this:
Then white can tenuki knowing that he's gotten a little bit more influence here in sente, and can look at the clamp at a for large endgame. |
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| Author: | yithril [ Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr |
Okay, it happened like I was kind of expecting, and white took gote to stabilize in the corner. Fine, can't blame him. Now, like I said, I want to find a valuable place to spend my sente. The first things I considered were the top corners, versus the bottom and left sides. Because c14 and M3 are low, developing the sides is a bit less efficient than it could be. However, the knight move was still reasonable, because it prevents having that corner taken, to some degree. Then I started considering 'c', because it does more with the top left stones, even if they're low and far. Then I looked at 'd' and fell in love. I don't know any joseki for it (my opponent probably will) and it may be a situation where I'm trying too hard to do too many things. However, I swear I've seen it in pro games, and it seems like an interesting way to move fast and gain influence. This moves fast enough that it almost looks like I can get a respectable chunk of one side or the other, though it may be more invadable than a solid move. So I'll play this move to learn about it. |
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