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#147 Marcus vs 1986
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=5234
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Author:  1986 [ Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:34 am ]
Post subject:  #147 Marcus vs 1986

:bow:
Good Game Marcus

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


obs:
I know everybody is thinking about the six stone differences in our ranks & playing only with a 2 stone handicap, so I will explain.
Marcus let me pick the rules so I picked 2 stone handicap
Proper handicap at six stones is way too many IMO,
Especially for maklovitch when you have all day to think about the moves
I was going to pick 3 stones to even it out, but I have a lot 3 stone strategies and I wanted something more of a challenge, so two stones it is.
I’m motivated to play at my best with two stones. Besides I have all the time in the world to find the best move so it should be a good game!

:salute:

Author:  Marcus [ Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Good luck to you!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To be honest, there's probably less of a skill gap than 6 stones. I am a very shaky 2k for the most part.

Author:  EdLee [ Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:30 am ]
Post subject: 

Good game to both (and almost happy new year!) :mrgreen:

Author:  1986 [ Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm2 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


6 stones is a big gap i agree, so two stones might be just right for this game

this should be a good game for the both of us!

I will take my time in the opening and play proper (building strong groups) globally (making sure the groups work together whole board) & just focusing on staying ahead in points. staying ahead is the key to handicap go, and even more important in handicap go is the handicap stones are used for attacking (profitable attacks)

lets see how the next few moves go. its a little early to talk about attacking right now
:study:

Author:  Sur [ Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

I actually think that even 6 stones might not be enough. The difference between 8k KGS and 2k KGS is night and day and especially in a game when one has unlimited thinking time, the stronger player can really shine. 2 stones mean nearly even game, white doesn't need to play anything unusual, he can play as if he was in even game and it will be more than enough. I'm expecting white winning without a sweat here.

Author:  Marcus [ Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ah, another Malkovich game. Those who have seen my previous Malkovich games, or maybe have caught my games on DGS or KGS may note that I have a particularly ... inelegant style. This could get very, very messy eventually.

I have a tendency to play very lax moves in handicap games. Let's try not doing that this game. Yeah, that sounds like a good plan. ;)

Author:  speedchase [ Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Sur wrote:
I actually think that even 6 stones might not be enough. The difference between 8k KGS and 2k KGS is night and day and especially in a game when one has unlimited thinking time, the stronger player can really shine. 2 stones mean nearly even game, white doesn't need to play anything unusual, he can play as if he was in even game and it will be more than enough. I'm expecting white winning without a sweat here.


I believe the consensus (although I don't really know) is that malkovitch favors the weaker player because they have more time to not make a horrible mistake. Besides 1986 is one of those lots of studying players that is probably a bit stronger than his rank.

Author:  1986 [ Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i really want to approach his top left corner, but i must play solid and respond to his apporach. i didn't pincer because i didn't want a double enclosure on my right side so the large knights move is a good response.

i already know he is going to apprach my bottom left corner with f3 so i might pincer thats stone instead.

i must take my time and play solid the opening is the most important part of the game :study:

Author:  Marcus [ Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Large Knight, eh? Alright, let's leave that corner for now.

Too bad he did not pincer, I wanted to do this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4 Prisoners:
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . 4 3 . X 6 . . |
$$ . . 1 5 O . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]


I really like the above sequence, and I need more opportunities to play it. :)

Author:  1986 [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


wow i like that change up i was expecting f3 but now i get to extend along the bottom yay!.

hmm maybe he will extend on the bottom because o3 looks lonely now.

but if i were him i would secure a base for the c6 stone.

i still haven't had time to tenuki yet; but when i do i was thinking of appraching the top left unless its something urgent pops up.
:study:

Author:  Aphelion [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Two stones is way too little. This game will be over in 100 moves

Author:  Loons [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Looking at the position as white, I am torn between:

 Continuing joseki at 'a', which involves both played approaches; further, the joseki lines are infamously easy for black to slip up on in handicap games.

 And approaching 'b'. Neither of the played approaches seem very short on options for settling locally (can take all/part of a corner with x or y, or jump back like z/m).
 I feel like this would be a better use of white's moyo potential on the left than to play directly at 'm'; threaten a moyo across both top and left instead.

I would probably approach 'b'. It feels more active to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . m . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . B . a . z . . O . x y . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Also, yeah, 1986 will probably lose; but hopefully that will provide a good learning experience from our comments.

Author:  Marcus [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Neither of my two stones are in much trouble right now. Let's keep up the pressure. I'm still looking for my opponent to pincer me somewhere. Lots of fun to be had if I get pincered.

Author:  1986 [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


now it looks like the board is divided, white left/ black right. but as long as my stones are stronger than his i have no problem.

so far every section is black 2 to white 1.

there is no way for marcus to defend all these stones & they look so lonely.

the left side is kinda sketched out for him but its still wide open, in due time i will get to that side but so far i have not had sente yet.

(note to self when playing white in handi keep sente)

all i have to do is win by one point, so i can continue playing like its a regular even game.

so slow and steady, move by move, im playing as solid as possible, and when the time is right attack.

well its tsumego time for me :study:

Author:  illluck [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

I agree that 2 stones is probably too few, but black's play so far has been really calm while white feels a bit busy.

I wonder if Marcus generally plays this way in 2 stone games, my experience has been that with 2 stones it's usually OK for white to play normally and bid his time.

Author:  Marcus [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Very calm play by my opponent. No panic yet. Good for him. :)

Let's see how calm he can stay. K16 works well with my 3-5 at C15. K16 also supports my O17 kakari (is that the right term?). I have a tendency to create too many weak groups (regardless of who has what handi) ... let's see if I can avoid that in this game. Only two weak stones left to defend.

I would say that, so far, Black has played well. However, Black has also played to avoid complications, too. That might be to White's advantage, if White can successfully assess the whole board and consistently pick larger moves than Black picks ...

However, as many on the boards here know, I'm not very strong at positional judgment. My main strengths lie in reading and complicated fighting. I've played all my first moves in an attempt to entice my opponent into a fight, where I'm much more likely to come out ahead. Instead, my opponent is not playing my game. This is good for him, because I'm more likely to make a game-defining mistake in a game without much complications. I wonder if my opponent knew that beforehand? :mrgreen:

Anyways, since my opponent has selected such a calm path forward, I need to adjust and pull back the baying hounds of war. I'm satisfied with the exchange in the upper right, and now I need to solidify the two lower quadrants.

That doesn't mean I'm not looking at the weak areas in my opponent's formations ... here are some spots on the board that I'm eying for possible future attacks (the marked points aren't necessarily future moves, but weak points in my opponent's structure):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8 Possible future attack areas within Black's area of influence
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . b . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . h . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In addition, I'm still trying to entice an invasion out of my reclusive opponent. Will he jump in at one of my weak points on the top?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8 White's weak areas up top
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$$ | . . e a f . . c . . . d . O . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, all this hinges on what my opponent decides to attack next. Let's see ...

Author:  1986 [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


man, i wrote a nice long explaination and it got messed up so now i got to rewrite everything again :lol:

ill just give u the shorthand this time

I wanted to play A or C in the dia below, but
that is too soft,
besides 10 is sente and i can come back to defend that area later, as long as i retain sente

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners:
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


b is cool but the timing is not right yet, the open corner has priority

i choose 10 becuase its sente and i dont want him to play there

well thats the shorthand version, gotta go for now see u later :ugeek:

Author:  illluck [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

I understand 1986's plan, but moves like :b10: tend to end in gote.

Author:  hyperpape [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Illuck, I'd thought that, but the simplest variation is ambiguous to me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 1 . . 3 . . . . . O . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After :b3:, I would think that white partially owes a move.


Edited to fix the diagram.

Author:  illluck [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Yes, the precise sequence is hard to find - I'm not sure that the simple move there is best (because C15 by itself doesn't work well with the low stone at C6). But even after the simple move it feels like white can tenuki (or perhaps trade a few forcing moves outside - I still have a lot of trouble in judging whether moves like F16 are aji-keshi).

My preference would be something that tries to shut black inside or removes black's base. Perhaps F16? One issue I think is that white would prefer to play around O3 rather than support C6, but if white plays something like F16 then D10 becomes more important.

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