Life In 19x19 :: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn

I have a secret going into this game. I posted in my study journal that I am trying to work on counting. So I have a plan with that goal in mind. My plan, should it be feasible, is to win this game by less than 2 points. I don't want to make any moves that are unnecessary to win. If my opponent forces me to win by more, so be it, but I don't want to do anything unneeded. I just want to win. If and when this game makes it to yose, it is going to be fun.

I think this will be easier in a territorial game instead of one an influence one, so if I can make the game territorial at the start that's fine by me.

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I know this response was quick, but I spent much longer than I probably needed to thinking about my first move. Here is why I played the way I did:

First - I normally respond with a 4-4 in the opposite corner to avoid a cross game. However, I think the Micro Chinese is very good for black. Pros play if often and I don't want black to get this formation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Micro Chinese - too much for black. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I could respond by approaching the opposing 3-4 directly. I have done this from time-to-time against the possibility of the Micro/Mini Chinese, but I rarely like the result.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm4 Prevent Micro, still too much for black. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 0 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 9 . . . 6 1 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 2 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I know this opening is playable, but my thought is that it is like a stronger orthodox opening. A tewari analysis imagines me attaching to my opponent's enclosure on move 6, him responding solidly by connecting and then me playing a hane around his stones. I would never do that in response to an Orthodox Fuseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm4 Tewari Analysis $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 0 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 9 . . . 6 3 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 2 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For this reason I don't want to play an opposite corner 4-4 stone.

I did not play a 3-4 in the opposite corner because my opponent can then choose to play a 4-4 on the larger side of the board and that would again likely allow him to build a framework - which is what I'm avoiding by avoiding the Micro Chinese. So, I'll allow the cross game if black wishes.

Instead, if my opponent wants a cross game, that's fine. I'll play for territory everywhere. I do not fear the complications of the cross game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Tries for cross game? Make it territorial. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I do hope that hailthorn doesn't go for a san-ren-sei fuseki. However, if he does, my 3-4 stone is territorial and again I will work to play for territory and go about reducing when the center becomes a thing - not going crazy and getting worried that my opponent is building something big. It's not like I'm playing Takamiya or anything.

As the proverb says: "Reduce one move before the framework becomes territory."

Another move I considered was the 3-5 facing my opponent's stone. However, I don't like the way most 3-5 joseki would turn out in this situation and I'm not a fan of playing taisha just for the lols.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c A possible opening - taisha for lols $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I also decided against the 3-3 because it is too territorial if my opponent does not play a cross-game and I decided against a 5-4 because I don't plan on being able to build big things as white. But let it be known that, even on my first move, I considered plenty of possibilities.

I saw this as a good possibility when I played the 3-4, but I feel this is good for me. Two 4-4 stones want to go more for influence and frameworks, but this is going to be a game of territory now. My 3-4 stone is well equipped for this. I know an approach is imminent - and I knew that from the get-go. However, I have komi so I'm ahead for now.

The counting shall begin.

Current score: White 6.5, Black 0

I am going to go with the 3-3 move. A part of me is concerned about a shoulder hit, but I like the joseki result for me as it gives plenty of corner points. I also have a nice trick because this is a cross game. Since I have a 3-4, I have the ladder so can play this way giving me a nicer result.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm4 I have the ladder! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 6 . . 2 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he approaches my 3-4 high I will be happy to take my points in the corner with the usual attachment joseki. He'll end in gote and I'll approach the top right from the bottom.

If he approaches low I intend to play solidly. I know several joseki coming from the diagonal and it is impossible to punish. I'll let black have sente if he wants it to go shoulder hit me since this stone preserves my ladder. If he responds by making a 3-space extension I will tenuki to approach a corner, probably the top right from the top this time to use my newfound development potential coming from the kosumi. If he makes a two-space base I will play the kick-and-extend joseki for some nice corner and top-side profit.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Shusaku would be proud. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 6 . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Seems fine, even without the ladder? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My impression is that the top left is the largest area on the board right now, much larger than anything on the bottom or right for black because of the low 3-3 stone. In the top left, if black approaches high, the attach-hane that moyoaji is referring to seems fine, but black also has the option of going for the avalanche, which doesn't strike me as disadvantageous on this board, since the top and left are fairly equal, and black has the opportunity to end in sente.

I am a bit surprised by white's assumption that black will automatically shoulder hit the 3-3 stone. It seems as if not more likely to me that black will try to approach this stone at a 5-4 point or the like, to build out whichever side ends up looking bigger, as soon as it's clear. Because the 3-3 stone doesn't have a lot of potential, it's not necessary for black to do anything about it too early either.

As an afterthought, if black wants the ladder for the small avalanche, at least, he could play at A immediately and then go for it after white responds, or transpose to 5-4, 3-3 invasion if white doesn't.

EDIT: This was originally meant as a comment on white's plan after :w4:

and apparently got posted late.

So this move was on my mind on and off over the course of the conference. I was 99% sure black would honobi here and he did. I now have points! I count about 14 points in my corner - black has only influence at this point. The score is 20.5 to 0 in my favor. I'll need to let black get a few points soon. ;-)

I know the joseki is to fix the cut immediately. However, I was wondering if black might just try to play for the top immediately. So I have responses for both planned.

If black does finish the joseki and fix the cut then I will cleave the top side at :w4:

. I then see a sort of a-b miai. If black responds with one, I will take the other.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . b . . . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . 3 . . . , 4 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If black does not fix the cut, then I think the clamp will work nicely to remove territory directly. If he lets me under the territory is gone. If not it will start a fight. For this reason I think I will take sente to play elsewhere hoping to get some outside influence to swing any fight in my favor. Even without that, however, I may want to leave the aji and play elsewhere to use it in other ways. For example, if he doesn't fix the cut, extending up at 'a' is sente to get me some influence toward the left side. If I do tenuki it will be to approach the bottom from the left to see what black's reply is. If he backs off I'll pull back to one below the star point so that my extension to 'a' would not leave me over-concentrated. I might just play that immediately and then come back to my stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X 4 . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I strongly considered tenuki, but that is painful to an unacceptable level. Here is what I see happening from a tenuki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . c O O X . . . b 2 . 9 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . 0 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black has influence facing the left at 'a', I have the weak group at 'b', and my corner 'c' has shrunk to 9 points. I can't live with that. For those wondering why I wouldn't make a 2-space extension, that is too close to black's thickness. He can peep to press me down and then my group has nowhere to run so I need a higher stone farther from his wall.

I have never seen this 5th line pull back in response to this shoulder hit. I'll admit I don't play 3-3 stones very often anymore, but I used to play them all the time when I first played in middle school - I was very territorial.

The question is - how to proceed? Can I punish this move?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Main weakness I see $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can't fault :b15:

too much yet. It does do things. I feel there is a weak point at 'a', but that is all I see for now. The main thing it seems to do is make approaching the 4-4 on the right difficult as a pincer works very well for him. However, I do definately see one problem: that ain't sente at all. Time to take the initiative for myself.

Since :b15:

helps the right, I'll approach from the top.

Given my opponent's play thus-far, I think he will pincer. He probably should honestly. He needs to try to use that wall on the left. I could then go for the corner and take whichever invasion joseki he wants. Either I undercut the right or undercut the top.

If he takes the influence toward the right, I get sente to play against his weakness while still there is weakness on the left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 a-d responses not great for B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X C . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X c . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he blocks me the other way then I get more points and he still has weaknesses. Yes, his top could be very nice, but the aji is considerable. Black can't fix it all with 1 move. This is what I will assume my opponent will play. We shall see.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Aji at a-c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . O O X b . . . . . X . W X X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . c . . . a . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

These results seem fine, but I have a more interesting plan in mind. If black pincers, especially if he pincers lightly, I will change direction threatening his corner and undercutting his 5th line stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Double approach! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , 7 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he pulls back instead of pincering, I will pull back to the star point and prepare to attack his wall or expose the right side weakness.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Sort of a, b miai? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X b . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . 8 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I look forward to reading the comments from him on :b15:

. I would like to know why he felt this joseki/psuedo-joseki wasn't good for him. It seems to work well, building up great potential on the right. Maybe he feared I wouldn't respond to :b17:

? It is a pretty severe threat.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 can be at a or b too $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 6 4 , 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

No change in score yet. Black still only has influence, and he is getting more. I'll need to make sure I get some myself - another reason I like the double approach. Either way, influence isn't as big of a deal in a cross game assuming I don't somehow let black get a cross-board moyo. That would be sad.

Author:	hailthorn011 [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:49 am ]
Post subject:	#227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Rules as agreed: Even game, hailthorn taking black, territorial scoring, Komi 6.5. Hidden comments, no books. Good luck, moyoaji.

Author:	moyoaji [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Best of luck to you as well, hailthorn. I hope we both learn a lot. I look forward to seeing your thoughts when the game is over - and I have won. I have a secret going into this game. I posted in my study journal that I am trying to work on counting. So I have a plan with that goal in mind. *My plan, should it be feasible, is to win this game by less than 2 points.* I don't want to make any moves that are unnecessary to win. If my opponent forces me to win by more, so be it, but I don't want to do anything unneeded. I just want to win. If and when this game makes it to yose, it is going to be fun. I think this will be easier in a territorial game instead of one an influence one, so if I can make the game territorial at the start that's fine by me. --- I know this response was quick, but I spent much longer than I probably needed to thinking about my first move. Here is why I played the way I did: First - I normally respond with a 4-4 in the opposite corner to avoid a cross game. However, I think the Micro Chinese is very good for black. Pros play if often and I don't want black to get this formation. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Micro Chinese - too much for black. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . 5 . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I could respond by approaching the opposing 3-4 directly. I have done this from time-to-time against the possibility of the Micro/Mini Chinese, but I rarely like the result. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm4 Prevent Micro, still too much for black. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 0 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . 9 . . . 6 1 , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 2 4 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I know this opening is playable, but my thought is that it is like a stronger orthodox opening. A tewari analysis imagines me attaching to my opponent's enclosure on move 6, him responding solidly by connecting and then me playing a hane around his stones. I would never do that in response to an Orthodox Fuseki. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm4 Tewari Analysis $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 0 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . 9 . . . 6 3 , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 2 4 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] For this reason I don't want to play an opposite corner 4-4 stone. I did not play a 3-4 in the opposite corner because my opponent can then choose to play a 4-4 on the larger side of the board and that would again likely allow him to build a framework - which is what I'm avoiding by avoiding the Micro Chinese. So, I'll allow the cross game if black wishes. Instead, if my opponent wants a cross game, that's fine. I'll play for territory everywhere. I do not fear the complications of the cross game. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Tries for cross game? Make it territorial. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I do hope that hailthorn doesn't go for a san-ren-sei fuseki. However, if he does, my 3-4 stone is territorial and again I will work to play for territory and go about reducing when the center becomes a thing - not going crazy and getting worried that my opponent is building something big. It's not like I'm playing Takamiya or anything. As the proverb says: "Reduce one move before the framework becomes territory." Another move I considered was the 3-5 facing my opponent's stone. However, I don't like the way most 3-5 joseki would turn out in this situation and I'm not a fan of playing taisha just for the lols. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c A possible opening - taisha for lols $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . \| $$ \| . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I also decided against the 3-3 because it is too territorial if my opponent does not play a cross-game and I decided against a 5-4 because I don't plan on being able to build big things as white. But let it be known that, even on my first move, I considered plenty of possibilities.

Author:	hailthorn011 [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] This is an opening I've done a few times the past few games, so I figure I'll go with it here. Oh, and that's my 1000th post! Awesome!

Author:	moyoaji [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] And a cross game it shall be... I saw this as a good possibility when I played the 3-4, but I feel this is good for me. Two 4-4 stones want to go more for influence and frameworks, but this is going to be a game of territory now. My 3-4 stone is well equipped for this. I know an approach is imminent - and I knew that from the get-go. However, I have komi so I'm ahead for now. The counting shall begin. Current score: White 6.5, Black 0 I am going to go with the 3-3 move. A part of me is concerned about a shoulder hit, but I like the joseki result for me as it gives plenty of corner points. I also have a nice trick because this is a cross game. Since I have a 3-4, I have the ladder so can play this way giving me a nicer result. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm4 I have the ladder! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . 6 . . 2 3 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] If he approaches my 3-4 high I will be happy to take my points in the corner with the usual attachment joseki. He'll end in gote and I'll approach the top right from the bottom. If he approaches low I intend to play solidly. I know several joseki coming from the diagonal and it is impossible to punish. I'll let black have sente if he wants it to go shoulder hit me since this stone preserves my ladder. If he responds by making a 3-space extension I will tenuki to approach a corner, probably the top right from the top this time to use my newfound development potential coming from the kosumi. If he makes a two-space base I will play the kick-and-extend joseki for some nice corner and top-side profit. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Shusaku would be proud. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , 6 . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	Bill Spight [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Edit: Unhidden. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Approaching the top left corner is a good play for Black. It will be interesting to see which approach Black chooses. IIRC from some discussions a few years ago, after Black has good winning percentages, which makes dubious. Also, the 3-3 seems to have gone out of style in pro games. Is that because it is inferior, or will it make a comeback some day? In any event, if these are inferior plays for White, I doubt if it will matter much in an amateur game.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

#227 moyoaji vs hailthorn http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9323	Page 1 of 5

Author:	hailthorn011 [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I like the cross game.

Author:	moyoaji [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Sticking to the plan. I play out this joseki and approach. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm5 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 a . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I have some fear that my opponent will go for an avalanche variation by playing at 'a' but I've seen Clossius' YouTube video on it a few times so I think it'll be alright. I just need to make sure he doesn't get too much of a wall in exchange for my corner.

Author:	hailthorn011 [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Simply following standard procedure here.

Author:	skydyr [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Seems fine, even without the ladder? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 3 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] My impression is that the top left is the largest area on the board right now, much larger than anything on the bottom or right for black because of the low 3-3 stone. In the top left, if black approaches high, the attach-hane that moyoaji is referring to seems fine, but black also has the option of going for the avalanche, which doesn't strike me as disadvantageous on this board, since the top and left are fairly equal, and black has the opportunity to end in sente. I am a bit surprised by white's assumption that black will automatically shoulder hit the 3-3 stone. It seems as if not more likely to me that black will try to approach this stone at a 5-4 point or the like, to build out whichever side ends up looking bigger, as soon as it's clear. Because the 3-3 stone doesn't have a lot of potential, it's not necessary for black to do anything about it too early either. As an afterthought, if black wants the ladder for the small avalanche, at least, he could play at A immediately and then go for it after white responds, or transpose to 5-4, 3-3 invasion if white doesn't. EDIT: This was originally meant as a comment on white's plan after and apparently got posted late.

Author:	moyoaji [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 8 7 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] And incoming avalanche. Don't think this needs too much explanation as it is basically the only move. I can't get cut. I suppose black will now hane around mine. I will spend plenty of time thinking about my response, but for now my intention is then to play this simply and avoid complex variations. Black still has a cut at 'a' he'll want to deal with and I can expand on the left side with a move like 'b.' I am not too concerned about a black wall toward the top, perhaps I should be. I'll see how I'm feeling when black makes his next move. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm8 Nice and simple $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 1 X a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	skydyr [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] At this point, rather than fixing the cut, is practically the only move. I'm not sure I like this variation for white because white is held to the third line in the top left and white's got a low position in the bottom right while black's influence looks much more coordinated. Simple is all well and good as a general principle, but I think white needs to play more actively here.

Author:	hailthorn011 [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 8 7 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Still following standard procedure.

Author:	moyoaji [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 0 2 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 8 7 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I have to go to a conference this weekend, so I likely won't reply until Sunday evening. Sticking to the plan still. Keep it simple. If black extends to fix the cut then I'll probably take the time to cleave black's top side. If he fixes the cut directly then I'll hane at the head of his stones.

Author:	hailthorn011 [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Alright.

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Author:	moyoaji [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I'm back. Let the game begin again! So this move was on my mind on and off over the course of the conference. I was 99% sure black would honobi here and he did. I now have points! I count about 14 points in my corner - black has only influence at this point. The score is 20.5 to 0 in my favor. I'll need to let black get a few points soon. I know the joseki is to fix the cut immediately. However, I was wondering if black might just try to play for the top immediately. So I have responses for both planned. If black does finish the joseki and fix the cut then I will cleave the top side at . I then see a sort of a-b miai. If black responds with one, I will take the other. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X . . . b . . . . a . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . 3 . . . , 4 . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] If black does not fix the cut, then I think the clamp will work nicely to remove territory directly. If he lets me under the territory is gone. If not it will start a fight. For this reason I think I will take sente to play elsewhere hoping to get some outside influence to swing any fight in my favor. Even without that, however, I may want to leave the aji and play elsewhere to use it in other ways. For example, if he doesn't fix the cut, extending up at 'a' is sente to get me some influence toward the left side. If I do tenuki it will be to approach the bottom from the left to see what black's reply is. If he backs off I'll pull back to one below the star point so that my extension to 'a' would not leave me over-concentrated. I might just play that immediately and then come back to my stone. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X 4 . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 2 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I strongly considered tenuki, but that is painful to an unacceptable level. Here is what I see happening from a tenuki: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . c O O X . . . b 2 . 9 . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . 0 . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 4 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Black has influence facing the left at 'a', I have the weak group at 'b', and my corner 'c' has shrunk to 9 points. I can't live with that. For those wondering why I wouldn't make a 2-space extension, that is too close to black's thickness. He can peep to press me down and then my group has nowhere to run so I need a higher stone farther from his wall.

Author:	hailthorn011 [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Welcome back! I may be mistaken, but I feel this is a good place to tenuki for 2 reasons. The ladder doesn't work for black, so I don't have to worry about it. And two, I feel I would be over-concentrated by sticking to the top left. Now as for this move, I've thought about it for awhile. I feel it will work well globally with the stones I've already laid on the board, and will be beneficial in the long run. I'll have to see how white responds and how he decides to treat it.

Author:	moyoaji [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] He ignored me on the top. That means I can come back to cleaves, cuts, and clamps at my leisure. For now, how can I say "no" to glorious 4th line territory? I did not expect this approach move, but I am not saddened by it. Sure, black will get another wall, but I can come away with sente and many points while he pushes from behind. With all the defects in his upper left thickness I am not afraid.

Author:	hailthorn011 [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Again, my plan here is to work globally with the stones I have on the board. This move obviously doesn't lock up solid points, but that's not what I'm after. I'm hoping my influence will be better than whatever solid points can get, and I'll get ahead in the long-term game.

Author:	moyoaji [ Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I have never seen this 5th line pull back in response to this shoulder hit. I'll admit I don't play 3-3 stones very often anymore, but I used to play them all the time when I first played in middle school - I was very territorial. The question is - how to proceed? Can I punish this move? Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Main weakness I see $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . a . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I can't fault too much yet. It does do things. I feel there is a weak point at 'a', but that is all I see for now. The main thing it seems to do is make approaching the 4-4 on the right difficult as a pincer works very well for him. However, I do definately see one problem: that ain't sente at all. Time to take the initiative for myself. Since helps the right, I'll approach from the top. Given my opponent's play thus-far, I think he will pincer. He probably should honestly. He needs to try to use that wall on the left. I could then go for the corner and take whichever invasion joseki he wants. Either I undercut the right or undercut the top. If he takes the influence toward the right, I get sente to play against his weakness while still there is weakness on the left. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 a-d responses not great for B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X C . . . . . X . O . O O . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , a . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d b . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X c . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] If he blocks me the other way then I get more points and he still has weaknesses. Yes, his top could be very nice, but the aji is considerable. Black can't fix it all with 1 move. This is what I will assume my opponent will play. We shall see. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Aji at a-c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . \| $$ \| . . O O X b . . . . . X . W X X O . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . c . . . a . X O . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] These results seem fine, but I have a more interesting plan in mind. If black pincers, especially if he pincers lightly, I will change direction threatening his corner and undercutting his 5th line stone. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Double approach! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . , 7 . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] If he pulls back instead of pincering, I will pull back to the star point and prepare to attack his wall or expose the right side weakness. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Sort of a, b miai? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X b . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . 8 . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . a . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I look forward to reading the comments from him on . I would like to know why he felt this joseki/psuedo-joseki wasn't good for him. It seems to work well, building up great potential on the right. Maybe he feared I wouldn't respond to ? It is a pretty severe threat. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 can be at a or b too $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a b . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . 6 4 , 7 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 8 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] No change in score yet. Black still only has influence, and he is getting more. I'll need to make sure I get some myself - another reason I like the double approach. Either way, influence isn't as big of a deal in a cross game assuming I don't somehow let black get a cross-board moyo. That would be sad.

Author:	hailthorn011 [ Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Interesting. Very interesting. I like it.