review experiment: review from weaker players

emeraldemon · #1

A recent thread mentioned "The stronger you are, the fewer people there are who have the ability to give a good review". This may well be true, but I'm curious, could I learn something by reviews from weaker players? It seems like I probably could. So here's a game I lost recently on DGS. I'm 3k on DGS so for now I'd appreciate reviews from players weaker than 3k, ideally several stones weaker. Teach me, kohai!

tekesta · #2

I presently hold a 15k rank on IGS - but that's because I don't play there often. I usually play on turn-based servers. On DGS I am known as "tequesta2580" and on OGS I am "slashpine".

White 22 @ c8 appears to violate the proverb "Get strong before attacking." This is reflected in Wang Jixin's (王积薪) Golden Rule No. 3, when attacking the other guy, watch yourself. Playing it @ c4 would've been better; this way you have a solid base from which to attack or go into the center. White 24 @ d6 is only asking for a fight. Playing this move @ c4 or g3 would've been better. By No. 34 Black has a big môyô in the bottom right. From No. 39 to No. 60 Black makes big profit by attacking the White group. Best thing to do would've been to avoid the pushing fight and instead invade lightly. White 30 @ r8 was too deep. Somewhere like m10 - to probe lightly and have space for development - or q12 - to reduce Black's influence a bit - would've been better IMO. Remember Wang Jixin's second golden rule of Go, be unhurried to enter the opponent's territory. By Black 85 Black appears to be ahead in territory, but White can still turn the game around. White 100 would've been better played @ h8 to make use of the f9 stone. When one is behind in territory, it is better to go on the attack. Playing White 100 @ b10 feels like a gote move better saved for the endgame. By Black 143, s16 appears to be the biggest point on the board; the KLM White stones can be safely connected later.

White played well, even though Black took sente in the endgame and won by 11½ points.

schawipp · #3

I try your experiment and go into the lion's den. Below, I've included some variations and comments. I'm sure I will learn more from the refutations than you from my comments ;-)

emeraldemon · #4

I think there's one interesting result: I'm more inclined to carefully and critically think about each review comment. I know I should do this with stronger player's reviews also, but somehow it's easier to just accept "oh I should have played there", instead of "wait, is that actually better? What about this?" and so on. As for the game itself, to me the most critcal point is here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . O , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , B . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong, but I don't actually think black came out better than white in the lower left corner. I still think this black moyo is manageable, especially since white has a nice top framework to compensate. But I agree that my choice of move was poor. Looking back I think I'd try to start with something to break up that loose shimari, maybe this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . O , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , B . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . 4 2 X . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . X 3 1 . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think there's still enough bad aji on the bottom left to play a reduction there later ( I tried to split but misplayed there later). There were definitely some weak plays, especially towards the end. I feel like it's easier for me to be indecisive in turn-based games, where the next day I don't like my plan from yesterday and abruptly give up on it.

I may try to comment some more on your comments later, thanks for participating

Dusk Eagle · #5

I agree with tekesta that the pincer in the bottom left seems wrong, but agree with you that black got a bad result in the bottom left in the end. I think the fault lies with :b25:

. I don't see a good continuation for white if black plays the natural hane at D5. What were you planning if black did that?

Boidhre · #6

First 85 moves looked at blind, no dictionaries, no play through to bias my thinking, no reading of the above posts. I couldn't add much, but felt odd about some moves (which doesn't mean I think they're wrong, I either don't understand them, don't see what makes them good or my gut feeling is that it's not a good choice here).

I doubt you'll get much from this but it was an interesting experiment. I'm very tired or I would have done more. Thanks.

cyclops · #7

I hope at least one of my 7 kyu comments makes sense.
I didn't read the other comments yet. Will do it now.

review experiment: review from weaker players

Who is online