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 Post subject: Tons of mistakes!
Post #1 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:06 am 
Gosei
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I really hope I'm not asking to have games reviewed too often. However, this one was really bad, even though my opponent resigned.

I think the top right is fine for me, even ignoring the ladder breaker in the bottom left for it.

Self-reviewing first:
53: I think should have been F17. Negates white's thickness a bit and takes points on top.
55: Should this have been D13?
61: I found that this seems to be based on a ladder that I didn't have. As a result, should I have either jumped out or taken R3 for stability? Sacrificing this stone lost me a lot
91: I think this should have been at H12. That would have made my opponent defend in a less useful direction, helping me a lot in this fight.
103: Should have defended at E11, I think

Are there any mistakes I missed, or are any of these not actually mistakes?

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 Post subject: Re: Tons of mistakes!
Post #2 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:28 am 
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We're at about the same level, so here's my take on it:

Black 9: When you have a star stone in the far corner, I've usually seen the solid connection version of the joseki used instead. I don't know if that's a strong principle or just personal taste, though.

Black 37: As a general principle, when presented with a case where you need to connect, and you have a choice between the solid, obvious move and a cute move, where the cute move prevents being cut immediately but not forever, choose the solid move. If you read deeply and liked the outcome you got in the game when you made played black 37, then I guess it's fine. But otherwise I'd say you were lucky to have it work out as well as it did. And considering the weak black group in the center caused issues down the road, I don't think being cut in two is a good result for you :) Even with a huge corner.

Black 61/64: Yep, this feels wrong. Not sure what the right answer is. Maybe set up the ladder, let white cut, and then use it to make two moves in a row (ladder breaker + followup) on the far corner. You should be able to enclose the C14 white group with two moves. Or actually, maybe just make the ladder breaker + followup without setting up the ladder. If you're lucky and white decides the local threat outweighs the ladder and responds, you then set up the ladder, and basically got a move on the far side for free out of the exchange plus a working ladder. And it's at least sort of subtle and tricky so you might get white responding just out of habit.

Black 69: Hmm, maybe there's a tesuji here? Something like N11 almost seems to work, but white M13 puts you with a shortage of liberties. I guess this says that N12 should have been an urgent move for you. Probably instead of black 51. You let white rip you to shreds on the bottom, but can't be helped.

Black 119: Moves like this never seem to work in my games either :/

Black 191: Finish what you started or you make 189 seem a bit silly. N4. You can always save the stones by capturing at K8. Unless there's some tricky line of play I don't see.

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 Post subject: Re: Tons of mistakes!
Post #3 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:54 am 
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13: i would go high. doesnt really matter for kyu level players ...but it makes a difference.

17: you should have played L17,F17,E17,F16,D14. this is the correct flow of the game. this is very important for you to learn if you wanna be a dan level player.

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 Post subject: Re: Tons of mistakes!
Post #4 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:14 am 
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Nums: 9: I think this may be a matter of taste? I wanted to cover ground to have my next move relate better to both left-side groups, though that may have been wrong.
37: Which solid move did you recommend? Q14?
61: Yeah, I wondered about something like that...
69: Maybe N12 is correct, instead of the prior move. I think you're right. I really wanted to do that prior move, since it is at the boundary of two moyos and made mine much bigger and his much smaller, but when it comes down to it, defend before attacking. Thanks.
119: Story of my life =D
191: This is the only one I question. There does seem to be a tricky followup. If white cuts, I have to capture to save those bottom stones, right? But then H6 would kill my dragon on the left. I have to either connect solidly or lose one group, which I certainly couldn't afford. White had made a move earlier (170 @ G4) that broke my groups' connection to H3, so I had to lose those stones regardless, unless I had sente to waste.

Magicwwand:
13: This is the sort of move I feel like I should play, but get scared to. I should have played high because I had the other top corner, right? Is there anything I should know about when not to?
17: Yes, this sequence looks great. Next time, I'll try to see it, since it makes so much sense. Thanks! This sort of flow of play stuff is very interesting, and I want to improve at it.

Thank you both very much! I appreciate both of your advice, and will try to incorporate as much as I can of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Tons of mistakes!
Post #5 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:33 am 
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Chew Terr wrote:
Nums: 9: I think this may be a matter of taste?


Often (usually) it is. And I'm not 100% sure, but I think in this very specific case with a friendly star stone on the other corner, the solid connection is preferred because the corresponding extension is better balanced. That wasn't something I read or anything, just that whenever I see this exact side position I always see the solid connection. If someone has access to a game database I'd be interested in what pros usually play here.

Quote:
37: Which solid move did you recommend? Q14?


Eh maybe you and I are looking at the position very differently. I was thinking P15. The stones on the bottom seem strong enough without connecting. It's the running race between your weak group and the white weak group that would concern me. In the game, you captured a large part of the weak white group, cutting stone at P15 and all, but at the expense of a weak black group in the center that white was able to torment for multiple moves to gain quite a bit of profit.

Quote:
191: This is the only one I question. There does seem to be a tricky followup. If white cuts, I have to capture to save those bottom stones, right? But then H6 would kill my dragon on the left. I have to either connect solidly or lose one group, which I certainly couldn't afford. White had made a move earlier (170 @ G4) that broke my groups' connection to H3, so I had to lose those stones regardless, unless I had sente to waste.


Ah indeed. Unless it's possible to save that dragon on the left edge? B9 looks like sente for black (B11 as followup wrecks white). Maybe there's a sequence that gets life for black. Black B9, White B11, Black B8, White B7, Black B6 maybe? Really I'm terrible at life and death and I always fall for tricky sequences at the end of games, so you should probably just ignore everything I say after move 100 :)

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 Post subject: Re: Tons of mistakes!
Post #6 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:39 am 
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Quote:
37: Which solid move did you recommend? Q14?

Numsgil wrote:
Eh maybe you and I are looking at the position very differently. I was thinking P15. The stones on the bottom seem strong enough without connecting. It's the running race between your weak group and the white weak group that would concern me. In the game, you captured a large part of the weak white group, cutting stone at P15 and all, but at the expense of a weak black group in the center that white was able to torment for multiple moves to gain quite a bit of profit.


Oh, right, I see what you mean now. Right, I didn't see that option, but I like it. Seems to assure the cut afterwards as miai anyways, without the ladder breaker, at least.

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 Post subject: Re: Tons of mistakes!
Post #7 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:40 pm 
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I agree with what Chew played in the game, with the addition that the move white played doesn't actually break the ladder, so really white shouldn't have profited as much as he did. The white stones in the corner are probably too weak to live if black cuts as he did, and certainly too weak to both cut black and live.


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 Post subject: Re: Tons of mistakes!
Post #8 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:45 pm 
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Shaddy: Wow, you're right. I really need to not rush my ladder reading in a game. I should not assume my opponent's ladder-breaker is valid, just because they play it as though it were. So the ugly-looking move is really okay? Good to know, thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Tons of mistakes!
Post #9 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:53 pm 
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Also, black can block with 65, if white cuts, b n4 seems ok.


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 Post subject: Re: Tons of mistakes!
Post #10 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:34 am 
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I dont think 9 is a matter of taste. D7 is usually played if you want to go one space further with your extension, but in this case one space further isnt neccesary. a quicker development means more 'stuff' for white too, so a solid connection would be better (because with a solid connection you have the 'ideal' distance to your hoshi stone, too)


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 Post subject: Re: Tons of mistakes!
Post #11 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:16 pm 
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I disagree. I think :b9: can be in either position. I looked up the entire side position in eidogo's pro game database and found examples of both plays in positions just like this. There were also a ton of examples of pros not playing the extension on move 11, or playing a dual extension / corner enclosure oogeima at C13, etc. I think there are many fine ways to play here.

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