Position from a recent game

Andd · #1

So this occurred in a game I recently played. I need some help Figuring the correct response

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . a . 1 . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . b . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . 4 . X . O . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So was the tenuki at 3 a mistake? w4 seems a little early but I didn't see how to play well against it. a and b are the points that looked most promising. I played a in game but I now feel that this is the wrong direction, play c and keep them split maybe? any comments would be appreciated.

Tommie · #2

Andd wrote:

... a game I recently played. I need some help Figuring the correct response
(...)
So was the tenuki at 3 a mistake? w4 seems a little early but I didn't see how to play well against it. a and b are the points that looked most promising. I played a in game but I now feel that this is the wrong direction, play c and keep them split maybe? any comments would be appreciated.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . a . 1 . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . b . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . 4 . X . O . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Option B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . a 0 B . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 1 9 8 6 m . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . W 7 X 4 O . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 2 3 . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Move

looks at least natural, perhaps option C is also feasible, as W would have 2 weak groups.
However the exchange for hoshi extension keima :wc:

has already taken place, so perhaps it would be a 2 groups vs. 2 groups running fight, where the outcome is uncertain.

After attempt to connect :w2:

, Black can still cut-off the original invasion ston (former W4).
At the same time, a laddere is threatening, hence W10 should prevent that directly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Option B is sente $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . a O B . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X X O O m . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . 9 W X X O O . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . p 2 X . X 7 8 . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . r 4 5 3 q 6 0 . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

When checking whether there is an urgent threat,
we can verify that Black even would have sente,
i.e. would not lose 3 stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c variation on option B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . a O B . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X X O O m . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X p 0 W X X O O . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . 7 6 u 2 X . X 8 . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . r . q 4 5 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

... and again B wins, ( :b9:

= u)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c anothervariation on Option B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . r . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . h p q u . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . a 0 B . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . 9 1 . 4 5 . s t O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . 8 W . X 7 O . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . w . v . 6 2 3 . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is a tesuji, however more for the case that B had capped at A = :bc:

.

After the black hane H, nothing good can come out of these actions,
if white A, I would be happy to protect around Q
threatening
i) to separate the right white group from the rest of the field
ii) threatening some geta around R to separate the left group.

If W cuts directly at P after hane H, then Black could give up that stone and isolate the right.
(Despite W's very bad shape on the left, I do not see a (good) way to capture W on the left.

____________________________________________________________________________
I didn't answer your question yet ('Was tenuki :b3:

good or bad?').

An extension on the right is feasible too.
If W invaded again at W4, the right group would be weaker.

Ha, again I didn't answer your question.

Perhaps I do not know the answer. :lol:

Bill Spight · #3

Some thoughts.

Edit: More thoughts. Go is hard. :mrgreen:

Tommie · #4

Bill Spight wrote:

Some thoughts.

Quote:

*** Does not cut the sector line. See variation.]
*** Better, perhaps.

TD: collateral damage by 'pushing from behind',

hence the mistake could have caused earlier,
e.g. how come there is a narrow extension wN3?

Quote:

[*** Most stubborn reply.]
[*** Surely this is Whte's next play.]
[*** Can Black not block?]

Bill, you point out correctly, that it is disadvantageous for B to block directly.
Then B should not block directly.

I had a look at the capping play, and it looks very easy going.

Quote:

Edit: More thoughts. Go is hard. :mrgreen:

Bill Spight · #5

Tommie wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

*** Does not cut the sector line. See variation.]
*** Better, perhaps.

TD: collateral damage by 'pushing from behind',

hence the mistake could have caused earlier,
e.g. how come there is a narrow extension wN3?

It looks like White came into the mini-Chinese too early, and perhaps in the wrong place.

Quote:

[*** Most stubborn reply.]
[*** Surely this is Whte's next play.]
[*** Can Black not block?]

Bill, you point out correctly, that it is disadvantageous for B to block directly.
Then B should not block directly.

But then what? If Black prevents White from connecting underneath, White will just march out into the center, splitting Black and making the shoulder blow look silly. No?

Hmmm. I was wrong. Black can block and then prevent White from connecting underneath. See SGF file below. :mrgreen:

Edited SGF. Go is hard. :mrgreen:

Andd · #6

So I guess what I learned most from this thread is that this situation has a dizzying amount of variations. But lit looks like from bill's sgf that b1 at D2 might have been the safest move. But what do you guys think of the cap at j5?

Magicwand · #7

Andd wrote:

So this occurred in a game I recently played. I need some help Figuring the correct response

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . a . 1 . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . b . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . 4 . X . O . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So was the tenuki at 3 a mistake? w4 seems a little early but I didn't see how to play well against it. a and b are the points that looked most promising. I played a in game but I now feel that this is the wrong direction, play c and keep them split maybe? any comments would be appreciated.

in my opinion tenuki is ok...
but

4 gives me a feeling of an overplay
see my variations.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 7 . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . 4 . X . O . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . 6 . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . 4 . X . O 7 . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

but i also can not answer your question..but i am pretty sure 4 is an overplay.
fyi, i did not read all the variations by bill.

Bill Spight · #8

Magicwand wrote:

Andd wrote:

So this occurred in a game I recently played. I need some help Figuring the correct response

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . a . 1 . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . b . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . 4 . X . O . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So was the tenuki at 3 a mistake? w4 seems a little early but I didn't see how to play well against it. a and b are the points that looked most promising. I played a in game but I now feel that this is the wrong direction, play c and keep them split maybe? any comments would be appreciated.

in my opinion tenuki is ok...
but

4 gives me a feeling of an overplay
see my variations.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 7 . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . 4 . X . O . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . 6 . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . 4 . X . O 7 . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

but i also can not answer your question..but i am pretty sure 4 is an overplay.
fyi, i did not read all the variations by bill.

Your

is very nice.

Andd · #9

Bill Spight wrote:

Your

is very nice.

Now If I could only see a great move like that in my games.

Andd · **#10**

Thanks everyone for the great comments. I'm sure they will come in handy when I play the mini chinese again.

Position from a recent game

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