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Offline topazg
 Post subject: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Post #1 Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:56 am 
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This one of the most epic games I've played without a clear blunder that I can remember. Lots of framework / territory issues, group swapping, trades, close escapes, with lots and lots of areas that I suspect could have been sharper or better directioned.

I've done my best to self review this one, but I'd love comments from anyone that has something to offer about the game (especially magicwand and Bill, who have often made great comments on games here, but please don't feel obliged either!)
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Offline HermanHiddema
 Post subject: Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Post #2 Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:06 am 
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Some comments:


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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Post #3 Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:26 am 
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Many thanks Herman, particularly on P6, I did wonder about that. It was one of those things that I though if I played too early I didn't have enough to chase the group for profit properly. I did wonder about playing it immediately, and decided not to until I had some more on the outside. In hindsight, I agree that it was the biggest thing on the board.

Some useful thoughts and ideas on the lower right too. I know the S5/S6 exchange was bad, but S11 for shape hadn't occurred to me. I'll have a closer look at that one.
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Post #4 Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:37 am 
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Some of my ideas:


edit: on reading herman's post, perhaps I should have made every comment after black failed to connect at p6 "CONNECT AT P6" :D
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Post #5 Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:56 am 
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How about move 75 at E15?

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Post #6 Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:43 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
How about move 75 at E15?


Yes, both you and Herman feel this way, and perhaps it is better. I chose the move I did because it Forced White to kill those stones, gave my E15 as a peep to creep in later anyway (which I used), and got me some points on the edge.

I was concerned if I played E15 that White would take the point I played instead, settle on the edge, increase the aji of his cutting stones in the middle, and I would have gained nothing other than save two stones of little value. I felt most of their value as cutting stones had already been "used up", and that White would settle on both sides.

I guess I ought to read a bit more closely into the position :)

Thanks everyone for their comments.
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Offline sholvar
 Post subject: Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Post #7 Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:03 pm 
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I think your problem here is more your approach then your play. You don't take your own goals serious enough. You say, you want to make a moyo, but when white comes and says "well let's cut out a little of your moyo" (with R6, O3) you just respond with "okay, I can be happy without it..."
Then you exchange your Corner for Influence in the upper right. That is nice, but if you then let him walk out on the right side how is your framework earning the name moyo?

An then, but this might be a mistake (I'd like to remind you at this point that I'm around 4k KGS), I think you should not forget that you can extend your moyo on the top side BEFORE you invade. If you invade first your moyo lost it's last side, meaning the top. And if you don't want to extend on the top side, then don't play a high move on L16.

You planned to make a moyo extending from the right side. Then you let him leak in from the top right corner and the bottom right corner (from the bottom right even 2 times- move 80). Plan failed. Game over. That's the downside to moyo play. If your moyo fails, you fail. There will not be a chance to recover from that (if your opponent doesn't usually makes huuuuuge mistakes).

Anyway, it's an interesting opening. I hope you post more games about that. :tmbup:
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Post #8 Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:38 am 
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The usual caveats apply. Especially in the bottom right corner. It is both interesting and confusing.


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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Post #9 Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:45 pm 
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Bill considers 1, and then ultimately rejects it because the sacrifce after 9 does not favor black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X 7 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 5 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But how about 9 like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X 7 X O 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 5 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline PROVOK3
 Post subject: Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Post #10 Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:39 am 
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The opening sequence looks so weird. I wonder if any pros have attempted an opening anywhere close as strange as the one you pulled off.

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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Post #11 Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:17 am 
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Go to http://www.gogod.co.uk/NewInGo/NewInGo.htm, number 73 on the right, last page. I think that opening trumps this one by a mile..
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Post #12 Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:25 pm 
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Many thanks again to all of you for your comments. As there has been so much thought and effort put into this, I've added a couple of the ideas and suggestions to my original and sent it to Jeff Chang (KGS 9d) for a paid proper game review, and will post it here when it comes back.

What a great bunch you all are :)
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Offline ethanb
 Post subject: Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Post #13 Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:59 pm 
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Sorry I haven't responded in here - I saw this thread but didn't feel like I had time to contribute. But the probe to which topazg thinks I should tenuki...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . O O . . . . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X O . O . O X O . O X O 1 . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . O O X . O X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . X . O . X . . . X O O X O X . . . |
$$ | . X . X X X . O O . X . . X O X . O . |
$$ | . . O O O O O . X X . O O X O . X O . |
$$ | . X O . . O X X . . . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . X . O O X X O O . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O X O O . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X O . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . X X X O X X O . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . X . . X X . X O . . O . . . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O X O X . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . O . . X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . O . X O O X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I didn't think I could win this capturing race because of the weakness in my rear lines:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc This cut is pretty brutal.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . O O . . . . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X O . O . O X O . O X O 1 . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . O O X . O X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . X . O . X . . . X O O X O X . . . |
$$ | . X . X X X . O O 3 X . . X O X . O . |
$$ | . . O O O O O . X X 2 O O X O . X O . |
$$ | . X O . . O X X . 4 . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . X . O O X X O O . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O X O O 5 . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X O . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . X X X O X X O . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . X . . X X . X O . . O . . . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O X O X . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . O . . X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . O . X O O X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . O O . . . . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X O . O . O X O . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . O O X . O X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . X . O . X . . . X O O X O X . . . |
$$ | . X . X X X . O O X X . . X O X . O . |
$$ | . . O O O O O . X X O O O X O . X O . |
$$ | . X O . . O X X 2 O 4 . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . X . O O X X O O 3 . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O X O O B . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . 1 . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X O . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . X X X O X X O . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . X . . X X . X O . . O . . . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O X O X . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . O . . X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . O . X O O X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Post #14 Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:05 am 
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Interestingly, the connection was not as big as we all thought :)


This post by topazg was liked by 3 people: FrenchDude, lorill, sholvar
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Offline ethanb
 Post subject: Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Post #15 Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:09 pm 
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Much like Shuko, I play the first 50 moves of the game very well. Then come the blunders.

Unlike Fujisawa-sensei, I don't stop at just one blunder. ;-)

Thank you very much for getting the game analyzed, Graham. And many thanks to Jeff Chang for the insightful commentary. Next one's on me. :)
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