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 Post subject: Close game - opening
Post #1 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:37 pm 
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Here's a quick game I played recently, and won by .5 after a few blunders in the endgame.

Since it's blitz pace there are many reading errors of course, but I'd appreciate any comments on my opening, since I feel I fell a bit behind there, despite standard play from my opponent.

I responded to the early 3-3 invasion in a slightly different way than usual, but I don't think it worked out too well.

Many thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Close game - opening
Post #2 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:55 pm 
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6: It is perhaps normal to play on the right side (either R14 or R10 area) because this is where black can play to make a great large scale shape. You don't have to though, this move is not bad.

14: Quite bad. Forces black to get strong, whilst making the white stone weak. Did this really help your shape? Black could, for instance, still play the 3-3 invasion and the C6 stone doesn't seem to help.

If you want to protect the corner, just play C5. This is a much better shape that doesn't make black strong, but does protect the corner better. The other normal move is to play G3, both seem fine.

16: You coudl have played here straight away. Do you think the C6 exchange helped you play here?

18: Good, this is a very big move in just the right place to hinder black's framework.

22: This shape (two large knights moves from a 4-4 stone) is usually not great because it doesn't really protect the corner from the 3-3 invasion. That means that one of the moves is arguably wasted. You also leave an invasion point at J17 later.

The problem is that you have tried to fix two weaknesses (corner, side gap) whilst making territory - but this stretches too far and doesn't do either of these things! I think it is easiest to play E17 (which protects the corner), then if black does something in the H17 gap you can attack him without worrying about losing the corner as well.

32: Quite bad. Black gets the left side, you get 1 stone.

It is normal (and better here) to just play B15. When black plays B17, you can protect your weakness. Unfortunately you end up with bad shape because of the aforementioned double-ogeima. This is basically why the second large knights move was a bad move.

You can try to play differently earlier to hurt black's corner, but it is very hard to do so when both of your follow up stones (G17 and C13) are far away.

58: I think this is bad. Q18 is a single stone (though a relatively large one ;) ), and it was very slow for black to bother capturing it like this. I think it is better to play O14 and prevent black from stepping easily into your moyo.


Comments stop here because you specified opening, and the middle game is beginning.

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 Post subject: Re: Close game - opening
Post #3 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:21 pm 
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66: locally I prefer the shoulderhit L4. B is so low it is easy to keep him low.
globally I would play on the border on your moyo's. O9 for example
142: @J14 and he wll get bad shape
162: @N2 is much better shape. After this move there is no need to run with this group.
164: better to attack around F5
226:E4 is obviously better
247: @M8 will give you headache at best.

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 Post subject: Re: Close game - opening
Post #4 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:08 pm 
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Thoughts. As always, take with a grain of salt, and of course if anything I say conflicts with amnal, I defer to him.

6: Black's situation on the right side is called the "orthodox fuseki". The sequence that follows should be fine for white, but you might have fun browsing through the other possible responses here

14: Remember the scene in the Matrix where the weaselly guy says, "After a while, you don't even see the numbers anymore. Now I just see blonde, redhead, blonde..."? The go board is like that. I don't want you to see black stones and white stones anymore... I want you to see weak groups and strong groups. Two stones separated by a two-space jump, deep in hostile territory, with no room for an extension on either side: this is the stereotype of a weak group. And you never, ever touch weak stones, as I'm sure you know, because in contact fights, both sides get stronger very quickly. (Trying to keep him from extending down the side is good, of course! But you need to fence him in from a distance. I would probably play C5, but C4 might be better.)

16: D6 is a big move for B now, and the corner is still vulnerable to invasion. :w16: wasn't necessarily a mistake, but it's certainly inconsistent with :w14:

22: You should recognize that this move creates a type of double wing formation (so-called because the 4-4 stone has two extensions, normally at a slight diagonal, which looks like a bird in flight). If, after W has put together a double-wing formation, W then blocks off the corner, W gets a huge amount of territory in that quadrant. On the other hand, if B invades the corner instead, W's wall will often be too close to one of the wings. For this reason, B often invades under W's double-wing formation as soon as possible. So when you're playing the second wing, you need to ask yourself (a) which way you're going to block when B invades, and (b) whether the wall you get from the invasion is going to be helpful or not. (In this case, the wall doesn't look too great.)

32: I'm sure you've read out the variations by now to see that this was a mistake. The whole sequence through 48 is pretty bad for you, although having made the initial mistake, I think it's forced.

52: The knight's move towards the center is an attacking move: normally, it aims to cut off a weak group from its escape route to the center, but it can be cut easily. Now, look at this board. Which of these groups are strong and which are weak? Should R12 be attacking R18 (which, besides the corner, can capture Q18 whenever it chooses)? Probably not. -------- I think O15 is a good shared vital point for building influence, and P12 is a good point for strengthening R12, but this move is lukewarm and inefficient.

60&62: Awkwardly, these moves leave cutting points at both P12 and P14. It's ominous. I would have hung back a little.

66: This move strikes me as wrong. I think you're ahead. You're in a comfortable position, and you want to firm up the boundaries of your own territory above while at the same time laying the groundwork to reduce B's potential in the lower-center to nothing. By making a weak group that will have to writhe and wriggle it's way out of B's sphere of influence, you're begging him to get strong, drive a spike into your territory, and then start activating aji.

84: I think this is overplay. Think of 82 as a forcing move. You want to stay light for now, be willing to sacrifice stones. The key thing is to break out into the center with K7 or L8. Later you can try to pick up more points in this area.

86: Inconsistent. If you were going to play :b84:, why not marry it and play S8? Remember, weak, invading groups need to stay light. Randomly connecting worthless stones to your group only reduces your flexibility, even if it's sente.

90: I like Q7 better. R9 comes under attack, but in exchange you get an attack on N8.

94-97: This sequence strikes me as aji keshi: you don't have any particular use for these stones you have here, so you might as well save the potential for later. (B then proceeds to squander his own options with 99 first: He should play one or two more moves before deciding which way to atari.)

108: The health of L8 is your #1 strategic priority right now. This move doesn't help with that at all. What does it help with - what was your goal here? (Neither does 110, or 112. All of these moves make the black group hunting L8 extremely thick.)

114: Aji keshi. You can always play this later, but later the black stone at P7 may be obnoxious.

116-120: What you're trying to do is understandable, but two things. First, you're playing way too close to black's thickness. You need to jump back when you're trying to seal off territory like this. (Like with nets - as B approaches the new perimeter, you can seal it off.) Second, your weak group still looks dead to me, and I think you should concentrate on saving it first.

128: This is probably better than N13, but you should understand that not playing N13 is very inconsistent. Was your goal just to make a big lump of stones for B to capture?

Next you capture some of B's stones and the middle game ends, so I'll conclude my comments.

Summative comments: Play more slowly. You played the whole game in 10 minutes, a blistering 4s per move. With your added time per move, you can (i) read out sequences, (ii) think about which groups are strong and which groups are weak, (iii) try to think about your priorities and how best to achieve them, and (iv) try to decide whether you're ahead (and able to play solidly) or behind (and need to take risks).


This post by jts was liked by: Chew Terr
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 Post subject: Re: Close game - opening
Post #5 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:12 pm 
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jts wrote:
...
14: Remember the scene in the Matrix where the weaselly guy says, "After a while, you don't even see the numbers anymore. Now I just see blonde, redhead, blonde..."? The go board is like that. I don't want you to see black stones and white stones anymore...


That's a great metaphor. I think that I'm going to plagarize it frequently.

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Post #6 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:09 am 
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jts,
jts wrote:
14: Two stones separated by a two-space jump... this is the stereotype of a weak group.
Completely wrong. B's C7 group is not weak. It's the opposite: B's 2-space jump is a good shape.
The meaning of :b11: is precisely that C7 and C13 are miai to make a 2-space jump to settle.
jts wrote:
And you never, ever touch weak stones
Nope. First, B's C7 group is not weak (see above). Second, there's almost no "always" and almost no "never" in Go. Almost. Usually. Maybe. :)
Every situation is different so we must evaluate every situation on its own.
Proverbs are only guidelines; we must learn when to apply them, and when to discard them. This is not easy.
:w14: is bad not because of the strength or weakness of B's C7 group. See amnal's note.

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 Post subject: Re: Close game - opening
Post #7 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:37 am 
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Some comments: :)


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Post #8 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:00 am 
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EdLee wrote:
jts wrote:
And you never, ever touch weak stones
Nope. There's almost no "always" and almost no "never" in Go. Almost. Usually. Maybe. :)


One situation where you might need to touch weak stones is if it's the only way to close their escape to the rest of the board. eg: if a cap leaves an elephant eye weakness for the weak group to run through, you're probably better off putting the stone closer and doing some sort of diagonal hit, especially if it forms good shape (one or two space jump, or or two space knight's jump) with your walls on either side.

I can maybe put together a diagram to explain this point.

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Post #9 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:22 am 
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Numsgil wrote:
EdLee wrote:
jts wrote:
And you never, ever touch weak stones
Nope. There's almost no "always" and almost no "never" in Go. Almost. Usually. Maybe. :)


One situation where you might need to touch weak stones is if it's the only way to close their escape to the rest of the board. eg: if a cap leaves an elephant eye weakness for the weak group to run through, you're probably better off putting the stone closer and doing some sort of diagonal hit, especially if it forms good shape (one or two space jump, or or two space knight's jump) with your walls on either side.

I can maybe put together a diagram to explain this point.


I take it goes without saying that all the rules we're laying out in go have a big asterisk that say "by always we mean sometimes." But maybe this can't be said enough.

As for the two-space extension group: if Koroviev hadn't attached, and hadn't bungled the upper left 3-3 invasion, and hadn't invaded in that tiny space at :w66: (a lot of "ifs" :wink: ), c10 and r12 would have been the two weakest groups on the board. Is there any dispute about that? If we agree on that, then I think we should agree that this kind of group can come under attack, you can gain in the middle game by threatening it or leaning on it, and asking it to strengthen itself on :w14: is a bad move. If, on the other hand, B also had c13, B's position is fairly secure and, even if c6 is tactically not quite right, the general idea of strengthening both B and W locally would be potentially quite good.

(By the way, Koroviev, these guys have been playing go for much longer than I have, so if ultimately they say touching c7 is fine, maybe touching c7 is fine... :roll: )

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Post #10 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:31 am 
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EdLee wrote:
See amnal's note.


amnal wrote:
Forces black to get strong


I can't speak for amnal, but isn't forcing B to get stronger quite savvy, if B is already strong? That's what overconcentrated shape is.

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Post #11 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:00 pm 
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jts wrote:
EdLee wrote:
See amnal's note.


amnal wrote:
Forces black to get strong


I can't speak for amnal, but isn't forcing B to get stronger quite savvy, if B is already strong? That's what overconcentrated shape is.


Good question.

---

Point 1)

It is certainly true that 'if white is strong, it may be a good way to play to make him stronger whilst benefiting yourself. White does not gain anything, but black gets whatever benefit he devised'.

However, in this game white forgot the 'whilst benefiting yourself'. He spends one sente move which a) makes black stronger than before, and b) gains him absolutely nothing unless he spends another move to save his stone. If he does not spend another move (for instance, drawing back), black can probably just play the 3-3 invasion and white's wall is worthless because white has forced black to make his group unusually strong.

So, we can say that white's move is bad unless he plays another move in the area. The obvious 'another move' is to just draw back, but in this case white has gote and has not gained anything that he would not have gained by just playing this 'draw back' move in the first place. The contact stone has absolutely no value other than making the opponent stronger.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Corner
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . a . . . . . . .
$$ | . b . c . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


In this shape, white takes gote, but now can aim at a,b,c etc. as appropriate. In the game, he removes most of his options but does not gain anything for it.

Because of this, white is not making his opponent 'strong' but 'unnecessarily strong'. This makes the move bad.

---

Point 2)

It is also worth pointing out that, whilst black's shape is good and cannot be immediately attacked, it is not truly strong (perhaps we might say 'strong but not thick'?). Imagine, for instance, this common side-of-board shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Corner
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . 5 . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


In this shape, white's stones are safe and fairly strong, but what happens if he plays the 3-3 invasion? He can perhaps devise a way to legitimately do so, but not without cost, as black's wall is now perfectly placed to attack the suddenly weak group on the side. My quick search found almost no professional games where the pro chose to dive into the corner without having some easy way out for the group on the side. Even where the professional did weaken the group significantly, he is always forced to play slow moves to prevent it being severely attacked, or has to give up significant profit in the ensuing fight.

This is another reason why making black strong in the game was bad. Although he was already technically strong, his strength was the kind that is liable to change suddenly. By settling the situation without protecting the corner, you risk a big loss as it turns out you've made him thick where he was not before.



Edit:

Here is a nice game where one player dives into the corner without being alive on the side, leaving his opponent a strong attack. This kind of thing is why the side shape is not really thick. I hope it is okay to post games from GoGoD.


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 Post subject: Re: Close game - opening
Post #12 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:42 am 
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Many thanks for all these replies, am studying these in depth at the mo.

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