Weirdly aggressive 11k

Monadology · #1

Since I haven't asked for a game review in a while and I was a little bit troubled by how much I got pushed around in spite of my opponent making an attachment and hane in the upper right corner as their first two moves. They made life for their central group pretty early, which didn't seem satisfactory for me. Running out at K-10 at move 49 probably would have been best. Any suggestions on the fight around that time would be appreciated. I clearly did something wrong considering the way he pushed out from the left corner and across the entire board.

Also, I've noticed I occasionally get caught by moves like 166. Sometimes these seem to work for my opponent, other times not so much. What's the best way to handle them? Is there a way? How might I have prevented it? That was the turning point that lost me the game, though had it not occurred I would not have had a particularly large lead.

Redundant · #2

Move three is totally one hundred percent wrong. The only answer is to white 2 is to hane.

Monadology · #3

Redundant wrote:

Move three is totally one hundred percent wrong. The only answer is to white 2 is to hane.

Which direction?

SolarBear · #4

Just some random thoughts.

15 : The cut at R5 looks nasty, this move should have been used to protect against it.
43 : I feel this goes against Black 41. Black made a nice dumpling with the J7 group : by leaving the L8 stones to die, White can easily connect to his other stones and live. Playing L10 would have been possible since the ladder was in Black's favor. (K10 does not work here : W K9 just destroys it)
85 : Looks like a waste of a move to me. With White's current thickness, the P16 group needs eyes. I would've simply sacrificed them, forcing with B L12, W M11, B L16.
103 : These stones are dead. Black is just helping White gain influence ! The P16 group still needs some love, or possibly taking a big point : Black does not have much definitive territory.
125 : D5.
225 : How about R17 ? With a single stone at R16, that fight looks promising for Black.
243 : Should have been at A16.
259 : B T2, W S2, B Q1 and W is dead.

Black had a very good attack going at the beginning of the game, but then spent the rest of the game answering White's little, tiny threats and cuts. Learn to sacrifice and let go of your stones. If you follow your opponent around the board, answering every single of their threats, you are sure to lose against that kind of player.

Also, make sure to read endgame situations thoroughly. W D7, for instance, made a huge hold in Black's territory.

Redundant · #5

Monadology wrote:

Redundant wrote:

Move three is totally one hundred percent wrong. The only answer is to white 2 is to hane.

Which direction?

They both seem good to me. Depends on what you plan to do strategically.

daniel_the_smith · #6

Monadology wrote:

Redundant wrote:

Move three is totally one hundred percent wrong. The only answer is to white 2 is to hane.

Which direction?

Compared with not answering at all, it doesn't matter. An extension would also be much better than tenuki. Only in extremely rare circumstances is it ok to tenuki when two unsupported single stones are touching like that.

Joaz Banbeck · #7

A extension to P15 looks ok to me.

This:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]Bc $$ -------------------| $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ . . . . . 3 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

...can't be bad. Otherwise, if it were bad for black, then with a slight change in the move order, this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]Bc $$ -------------------| $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ . . . . . 1 3 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

...would have to be considered a refutation of the 5-4.

snorri · #8

Yilun Yang 7p has a funny saying: "bad move+bad move=good move." His point is that if your opponent plays something unusual that is superficially bad, you have to consider whether there is a follow-up that gives a better than average result for the oppponent. If that is the case, then tenuki is usually not a good idea.

It's sometimes hard to judge a single move, even an attachment. Only later, when you look at the result can something be said. Let's reorder the opening moves a bit to look at it a different way. Here, :b1:

to

represent a very common opening and you can find many professional games that begin this way. However, at this point, black would probably not choose to exchange :b5:

for

. That sort of exchange is typically reserved for ladder breakers or sometimes ko threats, because it results in a local loss. We would like to play :b5:

somewhere else such as at 'a', right?

So in this way see that although w2: in the original game may be suboptimal, if it goes like this, white has tricked black into making an unfavorable exchange.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 19x19 diagram $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . 5 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now, when there are empty corners an the board (especially when there is odd number, one can't consider them miai) it is very tempting to take one at the first opportunity. So black may be a little scared that white will get to play first in an empty corner. But if white takes sente at any time to do that, you expect:

Black gets: 1 corner + N + 1 stones in upper right corner
White gets: 2 corners + N stones in upper right corner

It might look like black is behind this way, but if black can get a stronger shape in the upper right with this extra stone, he is doing fine. So for example, we can see that taking sente won't buy white much, because now the :w2:

exchange looks bad for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 19x19 diagram $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . , . . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So there is not much to fear from white taking sente. However, what sometimes is the fear is that white will crosscut. (Maybe that's why you said white is "aggresssive.") But with no other stones around, black can just extend at :b5:

, threatening to capture either :w2:

with 'a' or :w4:

with 'b'. (If you haven't memorized the shape, please verify for yourself that black 'a' captures :w2:

.) If white can't save both :w2:

and

, then it is unreasonable to cut at :w4:

. Black shouldn't be afraid of this fight.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 19x19 diagram $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 2 a . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 4 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . , . . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Monadology · #9

Thanks for the detailed analysis, Snorri.

Quote:

Black gets: 1 corner + N + 1 stones in upper right corner
White gets: 2 corners + N stones in upper right corner

It might look like black is behind this way, but if black can get a stronger shape in the upper right with this extra stone, he is doing fine.

This is basically what I was thinking. It still seems to me like black is behind, but I am willing to take a stronger player's word on something like this. It still helps to see in more detail where said stronger players are coming from.

snorri · **#10**

Monadology wrote:

Thanks for the detailed analysis, Snorri.

Quote:

Black gets: 1 corner + N + 1 stones in upper right corner
White gets: 2 corners + N stones in upper right corner

It might look like black is behind this way, but if black can get a stronger shape in the upper right with this extra stone, he is doing fine.

This is basically what I was thinking. It still seems to me like black is behind, but I am willing to take a stronger player's word on something like this. It still helps to see in more detail where said stronger players are coming from.

One often hears "such-and-such is a terrible move" and this then given an alternative that is maybe half a point better. It is hard to be impressed by such arguments, I know. Part the appreciation of positions comes from experience, especially experience using thickness and aji. Weaker players are less likely to be able to leverage thickness, so they underestimate it. Since they often cannot read well enough to exploit bad aji in an opponent's position, they understimate that as well. Is this incorrect? I am not sure. If you want to win your games today, maybe you should disrespect your opponent's thickness, for example. Most of the time your opponent will misuse it anyway.

But such an attitude doesn't help a player become stronger in the future.

There are josekis in the books that don't I consider joseki for me, but a stonger player would say that they are even. The reason I don't fully appreciate the evenness is that I'm not comfortable with all of the follow-ups. Will I be able to find the endgame tesuji that makes this an even position rather than a loss? Maybe not. Will I find the right timing to defend a weakness that the joseki deliberately leaves behind in order to get sente? Maybe not. Can I use a vague thickness that points in a funny direction? Maybe not. Can I read the fight if my opponent plays a move in a complicated joseki I don't know? All too often, not!

If a stronger player shows you a position and says: "White is better" and you don't believe it, are you wrong? In a way, yes. I guess you can just take Kageyama's advice and just lay the position on the board every morning and chant to yourself "white is better." It seems kind of dogmatic, though. I was never sure if I should be burning incense when I do that.

Sometimes just have to play it to believe. But go is hard, and sometimes you will play it many times and still not believe. If we all looked at the board the same way, go would be a boring game, anyway.

Aphelion · **#11**

Two proverbs come to mind here: When attached, hane, and urgent before big. The situation with the attachment on the top right is the clearest indication of this. The player who gets to hane in in that area gets a HUGE HUGE advantage, far more that whatever empty corner. With your tenuki in game you were down almost a stone immediately after W4.

nagano · **#12**

Here's my take, any stronger players let me know, if I am wrong...

topazg · **#13**

I would only consider this here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 19x19 diagram $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . , . . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Corner is Black's. Influence is Black's. Hane in the corner is gote for White. Black has no peeps to fear.

If in doubt, play honte

Joaz Banbeck · **#14**

Nagano wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This chops white apart:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Nagano wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This looks better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

gaius · **#15**

^ Joaz, I disagree with you there. The black push in Nagano's second diagramme builds a little influence and (more importantly) white becomes very overconcentrated.

But, even more importantly, I think this entire discussion is not very relevant. When white plays a tsuke like that, it's very safe to just hane first and think later

.

nagano · **#16**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

This chops white apart:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Yes, but white has countermeasures, and should be able to get sente.

topazg wrote:

I would only consider this here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 19x19 diagram $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . , . . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Corner is Black's. Influence is Black's. Hane in the corner is gote for White. Black has no peeps to fear.

If in doubt, play honte

In this case, I agree it is probably a bit better.

Magicwand · **#17**

nagano wrote:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

This chops white apart:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Yes, but white has countermeasures, and should be able to get sente.

what countermeasures? how does he get sente?
below is the only logical sequence i see and it is not sente

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 6 . 2 1 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

if you are talking about below sente the it is terrorable for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 6 . 2 1 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

nagano · **#18**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 5 9 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O O X . . | $$ | . . . , 0 . . . . , . . . 2 1 X 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I responded rather hastefully. I was thinking of something like this, but I agree it should be significantly better for Black. At any rate, I indicated that white should not have played that way in the first place, so by "compensation" I meant relative to the mistake made.

Magicwand · **#19**

nagano wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 5 9 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O O X . . | $$ | . . . , 0 . . . . , . . . 2 1 X 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I responded rather hastefully. I was thinking of something like this, but I agree it should be significantly better for Black.

that is pretty good variation i didnt think of.
but...you missed one move on your variaton.

before connecting black will push.
now white can not tenuki.
very very different from your variation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 1 X 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 7 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

nagano · **#20**

Interesting... I actually thought about that, but was uncertain if it was better to push first or not. What is the rationale of pushing first rather than waiting? It seems to decrease Black's options, as well as his ability to access the center.

Weirdly aggressive 11k

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