It is currently Fri May 16, 2025 2:30 pm

View unanswered posts | View active topics View unread posts | View new posts | View your posts


Board index » Improve Your Game » Game Analysis

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]



Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 4 of 4
  [ 80 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
Offline Fllecha
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #61 Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:44 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 155
Liked others: 160
Was liked: 4
Rank: 4k OGS 1d Fox
Online playing schedule: OGS, Fox Server
Charles Matthews wrote:

The rest of the game illustrates the saying "the centre isn't as big as you think".


Yes it's true.

I made a calculation putting a ring of white stones around the square limitated by the hoshi stones: the inside territory is 11x11=121 net points, the outside territory is 192 (if I didn't made mistakes) and that is pretty sick for me.

_________________
Don't play 1-2-3
Just play 3

(Go proverb)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #62 Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:18 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Quote:
To me it seemed that my upper right corner was completely safe and alive (even if it was not already defined). In the weak points that you indicate, is there a risk of severe invading move or is only a long term weakness?
Hi Fllecha,

Your upper right corner, based on my experience,
and I can be completely wrong about this, is only a moyo.
It's far from completely safe (not alive at all).
( I mentioned P18 for :b15: -- someone with a nice database can search whether this was played by LeeChangHao. )
I believe there are, literally, over a million variations there.
I'm not good enough to show them to you. :)
Maybe some higher level folks can kindly shed some more light here.

(I also believe you need to experience hundreds of games to get some ideas about similar corner shapes. :) )
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #63 Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:25 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Quote:
When I was playing it I considered the proverb "Don't make empty triangles, look if you can find something better". But eventually I wanted to make solid connections in the false belief that my game was won either way. Now I see that was better.
Hi Fllecha,

This is good. You thought about the proverb,
and then came up with your own reasons to go against it.
Your reasoning turned out to be wrong,
but this is good: it's much better to have your own critical thinking,
come up with your own reasons (right or wrong),
than to blindly follow some nebulous general guideline proverbs.
Good. :tmbup:
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Fllecha
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #64 Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:09 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 155
Liked others: 160
Was liked: 4
Rank: 4k OGS 1d Fox
Online playing schedule: OGS, Fox Server
Hi all,

I followed EdLee advices while playing my low chinese and it seemed to work: I made my corner more solid and then I pincered this stone keeping him overconcentrated. I wanted to play aggressively and I invaded his corners gaining 3 of them.

At move 19 I wasn't happy with my side stones because I created a group open on the side and easy to invade. Ay help for me on that?

A very risky (and bad habit) in the end almost ruined all my position, even if in the analysys I found a way to seki the corner. Eventually all things went in order and I won by 16.5 points.

Two lessons learned:
- when you have a small corner keep an eye on it and when possible make life and gg.
- Having corners you may lose influence but as a compensation you make some points, you make his moyos smaller and you force him to make territory in the center that "is always less than you think". Of course things aren't that simple, but for me is a good starting point.

GAME 18


_________________
Don't play 1-2-3
Just play 3

(Go proverb)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline tekesta
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #65 Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:13 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 546
Liked others: 18
Was liked: 81
KGS: FanXiping
OGS: slashpine
:b16: is played in the right direction. This reduces White's moyo.

If White undermines with :w38: at B10, just play at C9 to keep White low, then use your outward-facing position to reduce White's top moyo and bottom territory. :w42: at O14 is White running out into the centre. Cut off the White group while you can, probably by playing P14, after which White plays either P13 or P15. Use one of the resulting cutting points to cut apart the White group. At this point White is going to get territory from his moyo, so just reduce as much as possible. :b43: should have been tenuki, perhaps at E12 to begin reducing White's moyo or J5 to reduce White's bottom side territory and make use of the D10 and C6 Black stones. :w60: is why I recommended cutting off that White group in advance.

For the rest of the game you go on the attack and reduce White's moyo. Which is good because had White been allowed to consolidate it and make it into solid territory you would have fallen far behind. Black 115 should have been at P14 to cut off 5 White stones, though White will likely save them with a play at P15; the G11 stone in atari was the salvation of the 6 White stones in the centre.

I must say that you are playing much better than before and paying attention to your moves. Still, I would play human opponents; I recently played against a British 10k and lost by over 60 points. This is because the bot plays in one way and humans play in another. This 10k player was my first human opponent in a long time, so of course I was very rusty.

This post by tekesta was liked by: Fllecha
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Charles Matthews
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #66 Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:34 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 450
Liked others: 5
Was liked: 189
Rank: BGA 3 dan
Fllecha wrote:
At move 19 I wasn't happy with my side stones because I created a group open on the side and easy to invade. Ay help for me on that?




:b19: at C10 is a normal, steady play.

I see three missed opportunities in the opening.

:b17: at S14 would give White disgusting shape.

:b19: and :b21: on the other side, at F3 and K4, would give White a second weak group.

:b29: at C13 would destroy White's shape.

Still, you played calmly after that.

A suggestion: try a different opening: Black 1, 3 and 5 at Q16, R4, P3. This is much less "technical" than the Chinese style.

This post by Charles Matthews was liked by: Fllecha
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Fllecha
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #67 Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:26 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 155
Liked others: 160
Was liked: 4
Rank: 4k OGS 1d Fox
Online playing schedule: OGS, Fox Server
tekesta wrote:
stones in the centre.

I must say that you are playing much better than before and paying attention to your moves. Still, I would play human opponents; I recently played against a British 10k and lost by over 60 points. This is because the bot plays in one way and humans play in another. This 10k player was my first human opponent in a long time, so of course I was very rusty.


Thanks for the comments. I prefer reaching at least 50 games agaist the bot, the other 50 against human. You don't see how much time I spend on every move, but sometimes I use 10 minutes or I have to stop because I'm confused by too much thing to worry about. So, at least for 30 games I'll play the bot, maybe increasing his level from 7 to 10 the maximum.

_________________
Don't play 1-2-3
Just play 3

(Go proverb)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Fllecha
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #68 Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:33 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 155
Liked others: 160
Was liked: 4
Rank: 4k OGS 1d Fox
Online playing schedule: OGS, Fox Server
Charles Matthews wrote:

:b17: at S14 would give White disgusting shape.


I considered that move, but I discarded since I thought it was too slow, and I was afraid that white would build a more solid moyo on the left. As a general rule (ok, very general rule in similar positions) is it ok to directly attack a weak group as the one in my game and let the left side alone? A move like C10 by white still annoys me ;)

Charles Matthews wrote:

:b19: and :b21: on the other side, at F3 and K4, would give White a second weak group.


Isn't this play a little risky for a baginner? I always fear to be closed up and killed

Charles Matthews wrote:
:b29: at C13 would destroy White's shape.



yes, i missed it

_________________
Don't play 1-2-3
Just play 3

(Go proverb)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Fllecha
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #69 Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:25 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 155
Liked others: 160
Was liked: 4
Rank: 4k OGS 1d Fox
Online playing schedule: OGS, Fox Server
Hi all,

I won another time with white so I decided to set to 10 the bot level from now on. I feel that I am much more confident with the very basics and some experience helped me to avoid some tactical tricks.

This game I made a avoidable mistake letting him all the right side. Now I understand that for me it's simpler to play when my opponent has split (solid) group rather than a large moyo of the same size.

Again I remember that it's easier to play with all cut fixed (instead of filling stupid dames) and maybe I lost some point doing that but if I don't do I let my opponent too much counterplay


GAME 19


_________________
Don't play 1-2-3
Just play 3

(Go proverb)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Fllecha
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #70 Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:36 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 155
Liked others: 160
Was liked: 4
Rank: 4k OGS 1d Fox
Online playing schedule: OGS, Fox Server
Hi all.. 20 games and I feel good: I set the computer at the maximum level but it seemed the same as level 7. And sincerely this is a target that I'll never and never expected to reach after only 20 games. I lost a close game as white playing a normal game without any special things, but maybe only due to a missed miai move that would likely win the game. But this improvement was possible only by studying and thanks to your reviews and your advices (that I tried with all my efforts to remember and put in practice.

A normal game takes about two hours to complete and the review another 30 minutes sometimes more: I probably must speed me up.

I found en passant a better rule for cutting point:

When the cutting point liberty has no more liberties (or few) immediately FIX the leaks. This sounds good to me.

As usual any comment very much appreciated.

PS: If you can indicate some good go sites I will explore them in the meanwhile. I am looking for this "features" if possible and in this oreder.

0) no KGS, I tried it but I'm not that happy.
1) No possibility to "escape" a game. It tilts me over the top.
2) Some traffic when it's 8 PM or so in central europe time: I don't want to wait half an hour to get a game :D
3) Possibility to play "slow games" and not only blitz game.

Thanks in advance.


GAME 20


_________________
Don't play 1-2-3
Just play 3

(Go proverb)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Charles Matthews
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #71 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:52 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 450
Liked others: 5
Was liked: 189
Rank: BGA 3 dan
Fllecha wrote:

GAME 19



A reasonable game for you. The machine still seems stronger at standard endgame.

Some detailed comments.

:w22: is good. I would have played :w26: one point lower, because there is interesting business if White then can play R3.

:w34: The correct style for cutting is at G14. Then after Black F13, White F12, Black wants to play H12. But that indirectly helps the white group in the top right. By W40 this is obviously good for White.

:w42: looks quite good. :b45: is certainly bad, making a heavy group for no reason. :w48: Ah yes, you can play this game!

:b75: There is still something left for White at P4.

It is good you are playing close games, from a tutorial point of view. Did you read the sequence after White at B4?
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Fllecha
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #72 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:03 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 155
Liked others: 160
Was liked: 4
Rank: 4k OGS 1d Fox
Online playing schedule: OGS, Fox Server
Charles Matthews wrote:

It is good you are playing close games, from a tutorial point of view. Did you read the sequence after White at B4?

Thanks Charles!

I made some variations after forced black :b77: O4 and white P3: if black hane at P5 white hane at O2 and saves the group and gains points, if black descent same does black and then white can easily think to look at Q5 and take the corner after some adventures :)

Now I'll start a new game introducin the clock, to take familiarity with that as I done with chess clock.
I try with 10 minute initial time, 5 minute overtime every 25 stones... is that good?

If you can answer even on what's the best playing site for a western player as in the last post of game 20 It would be very appreciated :)

_________________
Don't play 1-2-3
Just play 3

(Go proverb)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Fllecha
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #73 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:42 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 155
Liked others: 160
Was liked: 4
Rank: 4k OGS 1d Fox
Online playing schedule: OGS, Fox Server
Hi all..

I've just experimented the time limits and I was really stimulated... I was in time trouble basically anytime: in the final part I made a thrilling misclick with few seconds on the clock but eventually I managed to win. As said on the previous game I feel that now I'm out of "weak beginner" status and I am more like "strong beginner". Do you agree on that?
As usual any comment appreciated, and I stress with the best go site as I wrote in the previous posts.

I plan to play another five games with time control and if I win/lose with close score I definitively move to human players.

GAME 21



_________________
Don't play 1-2-3
Just play 3

(Go proverb)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline globulon
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #74 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:57 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 52
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Liked others: 87
Was liked: 9
Rank: Taiwan 2 kyu
Hello! Good game!

My suggestion to you concerns moves 51-54.

You describe 54 as small, but as I see it the life of the group is at stake.

This is a situation where you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

Practicing killing such a group is good for your life and death reading.

I would suggest you to take this situation and try to kill the group. Start by trying different 53 moves. One suggestion would be to push at the group on right and left to reduce eye space.

Another way would to be to start with a placement move inside the white group for 53.

Read out different possibilities and see what happens.

Another thing to do here would be to try different 51 moves. This could be more dangerous because there is a cutting point. Try to come to some conclusions about what the result will be in different scenarios.

Happy hunting!
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #75 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:26 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Quote:
try different 51 moves.
No. B is very happy to connect at :b51: -- the local shape is bad for White.
The exchange :w50: - :b51: is good for B, and bad for W.
It's possible :b51: in the game is the only move.

See also toothpaste and related (broken) shapes.

This post by EdLee was liked by: globulon
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline globulon
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #76 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:05 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 52
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Liked others: 87
Was liked: 9
Rank: Taiwan 2 kyu
I would like to say that I have spent some time with this today and to let you know it may be more challenging than I at first thought. I still think it is a good example of some basic ideas and can give you some good reading practice if you don't get obsessed with finding the "right" answer. I would like to show some hints.

I will try to put them in spoiler tags so you can look at them when you are ready.

The first hint:
The main key that I wanted to convey was that white is already surrounded, so black can make moves that threaten the white group without risking much damage to his own stones. I still think that you should be able to see a couple of these kinds of moves with the hints I gave before (think of closing off your own lower left corner with a threat, and also keeping white divided on the lower side with a threat.


2nd hint:
My most basic variation. This is not meant as a variation that shows best play for white, but thinking up this kind of line can give you a starting point to work from.

Attachment:
small.jpg
small.jpg [ 20.36 KiB | Viewed 7963 times ]

This post by globulon was liked by: Fllecha
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Mike Novack
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #77 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:42 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1045
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 182
Playing against human opponents may be a good idea. But remember, at your current level (and theirs) a great many mistakes will be being made, lots of bad habits.

Considering the last game you showed us, I would say that of you wanted to continue learning using the computer as opponent, you need to put the program up a level of two. You should have the program playing strongly enough that you are losing say 2 out of three or even 3 pout of four. In other words, not so strong that you always lose (then you can't see when you aren't making some usual mistake, but not so weak that your usual mistakes aren't being punished.

Remember, take the "rank" of the computer program as shown with a grain of salt. By and large, the "go knowledge" based AI programs aren't aggressive enough, but play solidly. But some humans play like that too, especially at your level.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Fllecha
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #78 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:41 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 155
Liked others: 160
Was liked: 4
Rank: 4k OGS 1d Fox
Online playing schedule: OGS, Fox Server
globulon wrote:
I would like to say that I have spent some time with this today and to let you know it may be more challenging than I at first thought. I still think it is a good example of some basic ideas and can give you some good reading practice if you don't get obsessed with finding the "right" answer.


I worked on that too and I found that actually white group can be killed. Maybe I missed some move too but I think there's no way out for white.

Skip at variation at :b53: for more details

Main problem was timing that forbid me to analyze deeply... From this moment I'd play with 10 minutes and 30 sec byo yomi
VARIATION AT :b53:

(the group un the end is killed because if :w58: at M2 then N3 and then the two hane at O1 an K1 kills definitively the group because L2 eye remains false.


_________________
Don't play 1-2-3
Just play 3

(Go proverb)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline globulon
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #79 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:32 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 52
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Liked others: 87
Was liked: 9
Rank: Taiwan 2 kyu
Hey Fllecha,

Good try! :tmbup:

I have loaded some variations that I looked at and I am curious what you think.



I think the situation is complicated, I don't think black can necessarily kill cleanly. In a case like this, I think it is good to try to make moves that seal white in and break up the bottom.

I think I overestimated blacks chances here myself when I first reviewed it.

On the other hand. I think black can make some valuable moves harassing the white group anyways.

So I think what I want to say is just that the original 53 feels a little too defensive and I wanted to correct the mindset of your comment to his 54. I think those points still stand. I'm don't think you can flat out kill white (though I don't feel confident in my assessment, maybe one of the strong players here could). But you can still make some moves that try to create something with a spirit like the diagram I showed before. You might want to lead with the kick from the corner and make a placement, and then block on the left, then just focus on sealing white in. These will be forcing moves that white will probably need to reply to, so you will be able to make those moves and then go about your business on the rest of the board.

Anyway, I hope my flopping around is some help to think about a situation like this.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Fllecha
 Post subject: Re: Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary
Post #80 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:27 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 155
Liked others: 160
Was liked: 4
Rank: 4k OGS 1d Fox
Online playing schedule: OGS, Fox Server
I'll analize globulon spot tomorrow, I found some interesting lines, and I admit that I didn't analized some interesting lines...

Meanwhile I moved to panda net server and I started to play humans (just 4 games) and I won 3 (easily with 30-50 points difference against 16+k) and lost 1 to a 6k that gave me 3 stones.

- Human plays VERY different from humans, you already said me that but now I understand how ;)

- Humans have some bad habits on behavoir: I was winning by over 70 points and he started to randomly invade my secure territory even when it was clear that ther was no hope... at least he played quicly, I called myself lucky about that.

- I found that there is reasonable traffic on that site for western players

- People play more contact go: anytime they attach and try to combine some random stuff... Pretty important to improve on that, but usually games are more interesting.

So for this moment I'll publish only lost game played with humans: it takes only another two wins to get 17k and start the road to SDK ;) Pretty interesting the ranking system imo on that site.

_________________
Don't play 1-2-3
Just play 3

(Go proverb)

This post by Fllecha was liked by: globulon
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 4 of 4
  [ 80 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

Board index » Improve Your Game » Game Analysis

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group