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Even Game against someone 9 stones stronger than I
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10542		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Abyssinica [ Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Even Game against someone 9 stones stronger than I
He may actually be more than 9 stones stronger than me. How can I tell? I'm out of his league. Anyways, I thought as hard as I could this game and here are the results.


Knotwilg wrote:
If White now at R16, you can next harass the top left structure. I'd say this game is merely a tiny bit better for White.

The following moves may have led to falling slightly behind:

Black 17 feels slow. White is strong at the left of that stone. You have a base already so why jump. Better pincer the lone white stone in the lower right.

Black 21 is the choice leading to overconcentration. After making a strong chain of three stones, hane at the outside is better. White may get some sabaki but his stone will be hurt then.

Black 27 approaches a stable group, unless you think of it as unstable and atari on the first line to unsettle it next. I would prefer to play at the top first, or retract 27 one space higher, so that the two space extension remains available.

Black 33 sets the probe in motion to make life immediately. Usually you take measures to reduce the outside first but indeed there is no clear such move.

It's a high quality game and will elicit interesting remarks by other forum members I'm sure.


Black 17 is because I don't want to get sealed in with just my two space extension. Besides that, I know a two space extension isn't necessarily locally alive just yet and I want to keep his two groups at least modestly separated. P6 at least helps my stones during the attack. They would be looking even more thin without p6 being there. I also note that o4 is on the vital point of the bulky 5 shape, but if I can stay connected with those groups after the attack is finished, I can assume I will be moderately okay even though I'm slowly getting behind white's sector line.

For black 21, I was completely suprised and had no idea what to do.

Looking on it now, I would like black 27 to be high. Knotwilg says it's approaching a stable group, but I don't think of it that way. I think of it as the fact that I have sente and there's one or two more big fuseki points to take. I thought about blocking white's optimal extension, but decided against it even though my extension from a 4-4 enclosure isn't as good as his from a 3-4.

I should stop the probe at white 36 and tenuki because it's free sente if white decides to kill.
Author:  Unusedname [ Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Even Game against someone 9 stones stronger than I
Abyssinica wrote:




All I had planned to say was that I've seen many pro games where 35 is saved for later.

:b17: I would probably play a move like this too. But if you're playing that close to thickness in the opening it's probably a slow move.

:b21: I think I would have tried R3 to keep the S5 stone isolated. but that looks like a poor response as well. I think this just further exposes a weakness of playing N5

:b27: I prefer High as well.

But to emphasize why I think a play on top is better. Look at how K16 minimizes your potential to create a moyo. Now it's a move that white wants to take for two reasons.

Now consider that you played K16 instead. You are threatening to expand to Q10, a position white doesn't want because his group on that side is already very low.

:b27: K16 :w28: Q10 (But more likely an approach to the corner) :b29: F17 Completing your high stone and beginning to pressure the corner enclosure.
Author:  Abyssinica [ Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Even Game against someone 9 stones stronger than I
Unusedname wrote:


But to emphasize why I think a play on top is better. Look at how K16 minimizes your potential to create a moyo. Now it's a move that white wants to take for two reasons.

Now consider that you played K16 instead. You are threatening to expand to Q10, a position white doesn't want because his group on that side is already very low.

:b27: K16 :w28: Q10 (But more likely an approach to the corner) :b29: F17 Completing your high stone and beginning to pressure the corner enclosure.


It's suprising the amount of difference in a game one direction of play error makes. Interesting to think about.
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi Abyssinica,

:b11: cut at F4. W tenuki'd -- this cut is one follow-up for you.

:b17: feels slow, as others have noted. You can look at your reasons for this move
and figure out why despite them, it's still feels slow. W cannot close you with one move.
If you want to settle, just S4. If you want to get out, consider Q5, or P5 -- at least you
have some follow-ups. Your :b17: has no good follow-up.
You can also pull back and see how you got into this situation: it's because you ignored
both lower left and lower right corner and tenuki'd on :b11:.
For example, if you played P4 instead on :b11:, then W would be on the defense lower right corner.

:b25: how about atari Q1 ? If W tenuki, your ponnuki is sente.
Author:  Abyssinica [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
Hi Abyssinica,

:b11: cut at F4. W tenuki'd -- this cut is one follow-up for you.


I remember hearing from Battousai that pros don't do this because the cut is too small. Thoughts on how I may have misinterpreted that?
Author:  Knotwilg [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even Game against someone 9 stones stronger than I
To me the point about :b27: is important enough to discuss again.

I understand you think of it as an extension from your top right enclosure and as such a big point. It doesn't seem to matter to you what's at the bottom right. But we shouldn't look at moves in the opening for what they accomplish on one side only. Because, next it's the opponent to play, and if there's only one good place to go, he'll go there. Your move needs to have some follow-up on both sides.

- if the bottom right would be a single opponent stone, then you can next approach it; if he goes there, then you can defend and build your moyo
- if the bottom right would be a high opponent position, then you can next undermine it or invade it with your 27 as a backup
- likewise if you have a single stone or a high position there, then your 27 would be building both sides simultaneously

but here, there is a stable White position (unless you think of it as weak, because you can still atari at the bottom and normally a ko will follow).

Against such stable positions, there is no follow-up from 27. :b27: is oriented only at the top right and a few moves later, White invaded there. While chasing it, your :b27: became stronger and influencial but with no purpose: the stable White group continued to nullify its power.

This wrong way of thinking about moves building a territorial framework (moyo) comes from thinking about the game as "surround more empty points". The real purpose is to "have more stones remaining" and look at territory merely as an efficient scoring mechanism. From that perspective, the empty space above is just as relevant as the strong group below.

Cheers
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Abyssinica wrote:
Thoughts on how I may have misinterpreted that?
A 2-minute quick search on SmartGo returned over 1,100 pro games
where B cuts. Items to consider:
  • There are reasons joseki is to fix the cut (solid connect or tiger's mouth);
    of course, W can tenuki, but B has the cut as a follow-up.
  • What was the context of the discussion ? What was the board position ?
  • Have you looked at any pro game searches where B cuts ?
  • Have you discussed this directly with a pro (a good level pro) ?

Of course, not cutting was not the reason you lost the game.
There were other, much bigger, mistakes,
but the cut is one follow-up for B (but not the only one).
Author:  Shaddy [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even Game against someone 9 stones stronger than I
Author:  oren [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
Abyssinica wrote:
I remember hearing from Battousai that pros don't do this because the cut is too small. Thoughts on how I may have misinterpreted that?


There is a ladder issue in the cut, and it's favorable for you in this case. The cut is a big point.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even Game against someone 9 stones stronger than I
My 2 pence. :)
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