Joseki

Fllecha · #1

Hi all,

I play very often this famous joseki as black, but after 1 sometimes my opponent plays white 2. Not always after my 1 but let's say in the middlegame. I usually respond stoppoing him in the circled intersection, and maybe setting up a trumpet connection.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . C 2 O . . . . . $$ | . . X . . O . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

1) I don't mean to fully understand the joseki (that's not my point, I am learing)
2) Don't say "learn joseki and lose 3 stones": let me simply play this sequence, I feel good if my opponent doesn't play 2 and I usually get a comfortable game

Clearly it depends on the whole position, but usually(=most of the time) GIVEN A "NORMAL" POSITION what's the correct follow up after white 2? Should I ignore it? What is trying to play here white?

Thank you in advance. Shortly I will post an entire game with this kind of "invasion"

pwaldron · #2

Fllecha wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . C 2 O . . . . . $$ | . . X . . O . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 . . . . . .[/go]

Pushing into the corner is not all that large. In the beginning White should be taking the opportunity to play outside moves, not burying himself in the corner. Extending down the side with :b3:

is usually a good move for Black.

Uberdude · #3

It depends a lot on when white plays that push, whether white has already extended on the top side, how strong the groups are etc.

But first we should say, that if you block, it means that white pushed in sente, he didn't spend a move on it. That push and block is a gain for white (gains a few points, takes a few from black, makes white a bit stronger and have more eyes, makes black a bit weaker and have fewer eyes), so he gained in sente, i.e. for free. So if you want a single answer, it is don't block.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B If W sente push $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . $$ | . . X . . O . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

By comparison imagine black blocks there and white answers (so black didn't spend a move):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B If B sente block $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . $$ | . . X . 2 O . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I hope you can see the 2nd diagram is a lot better for black than the first (as an exercise try to count the point difference, it might surprise you how big it is). In both of these the player who answered the corner move lacked fighting spirit, letting his opponent gain for free. I hope this makes you realise how important profit in sente is.

In your first diagram white hasn't extended on the top side yet, so that white group is not yet stable. In that case the corner block is not only about points, but also eyes for the white group. If you block and white tenukis you can attack like below. White would then probably run at a. Black would gain profit by chasing white (e.g. 5 could develop the top side). But also white profited from his tenuki of 4 so it would depend how big that tenuki was if it's worth suffering the weak group chase here, but generally a weak group running like this is a big minus.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 4 tenuki $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . $$ | . . X . . O . 5 . $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . a . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

However, white probably wouldn't tenuki, but extend. Now it's like the joseki, but white has got the push in the corner in sente. This is good for white. He does not deserve to get that push in sente so early in the game. So black has been tricked a bit here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . $$ | . . X . . O . . 4 $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

So another idea for black is to pincer immediately:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . c 2 O . . . . . $$ | . a X . . O . 3 . $$ | . b . X . d . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Now if white goes into the corner with a black can end up covering the outside with d. Black is probably happy here as we can compare with the joseki where black pincers instead of 3-3 (5 can also be a and white usually blocks and then black 5, but white can vary) then we can see that in the joseki white has occuped the 3-3 point so has a bigger corner than above.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . $$ | . . 4 . a O . 3 . $$ | . . . X . 5 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Another idea is to simply extend on the left side. This makes sure this group is safe (the push in the corner means white aims at pincering the group to attack it at a) and keeps blacks options as to how to play on the top side open. Keeping options open is generally a good idea. The thinking here is black doesn't want to exchange a for b as b makes white stronger on the top side so black can't develop there any more, and maybe that area is more important than the corner later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Calm extend $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . a 2 O . . . . . $$ | . . X . . O . . b $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 . . . . . .[/go]

Black can also simply tenuki this entire corner.

One thing that should be said, in case you are not aware of this common shape in which white already has the marked stone pincering the black corner (and has extended on the top side too). In that case blocking at 3 is rather dangerous as white has the placement at 4 which scoops out black's eyes and leaves him with a weak running group (though black may be able to resist with 5 at a).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . $$ | . 5 X . . O . . O $$ | . 4 . X . . . . . $$ | . a 6 7 . . . . . $$ | . 8 X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . W . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Because of this threat you will often see black answer that pincering stone in the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . $$ | . . X . . O . . O $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

If black didn't answer it though, then when white does push it is usually better for black to move out, for example with a move like this which aims at making shape at a and pressing at b, or even starting more running fights with the counter pincer at c.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W 2 tenuki $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 O . . . . . $$ | . . X . . O . . O $$ | . . . X . a . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . 4 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . b . . . . . $$ | . . c , . . . . .[/go]

Loons · #4

A heuristic I like to use is that if my opponent wants to play a bunch of second line moves, great...

Fllecha · #5

really complete answer! that was what I needed!! thanks

oca · #6

I saw this one on badukMovies (episode #9) https://badukmovies.com/episodes/sticky ... ?play=true

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . X . 3 . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . # . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------+[/go]

That's

seems to be a funny one, but never tried it (that's not that often that white plays :w2:

when you have the two hoshi stones like in the diagram...[edit] or maybe in handicap game...[/edit])

John Fairbairn · #7

Quote:

really complete answer! that was what I needed!! thanks

Fllecha: I suspect you know already it's very far from a "complete" answer, but rather one - and uberdude's comments especially - that is appropriate to your grade. For other grades there is much more that can be said, because this prosaic-looking joseki actually has many hidden depths. I hope you don't mind me hijacking the thread to pass on a few pointers to people with grades at the other end of the scale. Seeing that you have much, much more to look forward to on your own go journey might be sufficient compensation

This joseki, although now ubiquitous, is relatively new. It dates back only to 1934 and was heavily influenced by post-New Fuseki thinking. To this day it is still subject to debate among pros in some fundamental ways. There are important lines that don't appear in dictionaries like Ishida and Takao and you need to hope for articles and commentaries to keep up to date. But there are also important lines that don't get discussed anywhere in print and for which you have to look at raw games (or join a pro group).

That sort of comment could be made about many josekis, of course, but there are aspects of this particular one - partly because it is so common and beloved of amateurs - that make study of it rewarding.

Just to scratch the surface, White has irregular but not rare moves such as White 1 below, or 'a'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . . X . . O . . . $$ | . . . X 1 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . a . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I think Takao may omit this line altogether, and Ishida gives it the merest glance, but the big dictionaries do cover it, and according to them the standard joseki is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . $$ | . . X 1 6 O . . . 8 $$ | . 7 . X O . . . . . $$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

There are quite a few interesting features about this joseki. First, White has achieved the second-line push-and-answer in the corner that Black can, and often should, dodge in the more usual line explained by uberdude. So has Black failed somehow? Recall this is considered joseki.

Second, the most important move here is Black 1 - an empty triangle. So this is a case where memorisation of joseki is useful, as normally such moves are counter-intuitive for stronger players. But as it happens, the way play ends you can no longer really think of Black's shape as an empty triangle, and in fact it is now White who has one - yet it is still considered joseki! There are quite a few branches that are worth looking at in this shape: some favour White, some Black, and some are not joseki as such but are either even in other ways (such as a trade) or are appropriate only to certain fusekis. With so many branches, memorisation is best replaced by understanding, of course.

Third, the more obvious moves in place of Black's empty triangle are not just inferior, but bad. I am thinking of Black 1 or A below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . . X . . O . . . $$ | . . . X O . . . . $$ | . . . a 1 . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The empty triangle is the key response for Black - but (big BUT) the pros rarely play it! They usually prefer to tenuki - ignore White's move and play elsewhere. Again, the idea of tenuki is nothing new or strange, but doing a tenuki in response to a contact move is rather unusual.

As I said, just a little scratch, but enough I hope to reveal a few facets of what I believe is a jewel of a joseki.

Hushfield · #8

I share John's sentiment about the joseki he highlighted: it's a beauty. I studied it a little and played this in a game or two this summer, and the most important feedback I got from a professional after the game is that white should only play the contact move if she has stones in the other corner. The stones that are supposedly crucial are the ones in the upper right corner in the diagram below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . X 1 6 O . . . 8 . . O . . . . . .| $$ | . 7 . X O . . . . . . . . a . O . . .| $$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

If the other corner is black, the pincer is too good for black, making white's joseki choice a poor one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . X . . O . . . 1 . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Joseki

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