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Game against a 3k
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Author:  lapos [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:24 am ]
Post subject:  Game against a 3k
Hi everyone !

I improved a lot since I got back after few years without playing. I think the things which made me progress the most were Haylee's videos and Nick Sibicky lessons. For all kyu I advise you to take a look, it's quite good ;-)

So now it seems I'm a solid 4k (I am better than before my break yeah !) and here is a game against a 3k. Even if I won I would like to have your comments to know which part of my game still need to be improved. I made some comments myself to let you follow a little bit my thinking during the game.

Thanks !
Author:  tentano [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Game against a 3k
White made a bad opening, and didn't make up for it by fighting. Very passive at many key moments, especially at move 64 and at move 122.

There isn't really much to say about black, since white made most of the mistakes in this game.
Author:  Knotwilg [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Game against a 3k
AT :b71:, :b75: and :b83: you force the opponent to connect while your own gain is dubious.

But the most important point may be the direction of your attack. At :b81: you attack from the strong side but your influence gains nothing.
If you instead attack from the other side with a keima-boshi then White may eventually connect to his lower group (still possible to cut him I think) but your influence will be towards the empty centre and right side, plus you'll help your weaker group.

And indeed, not much later you decide to stop the attack. This is because, in my opinion, the direction was wrong.

It is an important aspect, which I still try to implement in my own games. What are we trying to achieve when attacking a group?
Author:  tapir [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Game against a 3k
You would learn more by reviewing lost games. Overall White played stunningly greedy (trying to take all corners at any cost), yet slow and heavy (rarely jumping often pushing from behind).

Omitting E4 is inexcusable. White would not yet be alive in the corner had you played there.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Game against a 3k
A few comments on the opening. :)
Author:  lapos [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Game against a 3k
First thanks for all your answers !

@tentano : Yes white seemed a bit passive during this game.



@Knotwild : :b71: was to prevent the formation of an eye. I agree for :b81:, it was unnecessary. As for :b83: it was a way to reinforce my center group, followed by :b85: it seemed nice.

For :b81: I don't see where you wanted me to play. I guess the other direction but where ? H8 maybe ?



@tapir : I agree, but each time I lose it seems it's because of an obvious mistake I made. I did not have a close game where I lose without really knowing why. But be sure when I will have one I will post it, I really want to improve my weakness !



@Bill Spight : For :b11: I think you are right I should have played higher. But how white could create a mini chinese without a stone in d17 ? Besides, I never play the two space high pincer. Maybe I should learn the basic joseki :oops:

For :b21: I did not thought about your variation but indeed it is a good one. Letting the corner to white and build a big wall.

Your variation for :b33: looks great, I wish I had seen it then !

Do not you think that :b35: in O17 make my group a little thin ? If white go like j14 it will be a threat no ? As for the variation with the cap for :b37: I really need to learn to attack this way, it is still something I do not use when I should.

Why :b51: was unnecessary ? It seemed to prevent a linkage between the white weak group and it was sente.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Game against a 3k
lapos wrote:
@Bill Spight: But how white could create a mini chinese without a stone in d17 ?


You are right, of course. ;) But I hope I got the idea across that White could approach the top left corner and then make a formation spanning the left side.

Quote:
Besides, I never play the two space high pincer. Maybe I should learn the basic joseki :oops:


Don't let ignorance of joseki prevent you from making the right play. :)

Quote:
Do not you think that :b35: in O17 make my group a little thin?


Both the two space extension (to N-17) and the three space extension are standard. However, the two space extension does not have a very good follow-up. The three space extension does (such as P-15). If White had had a stone on Q-15 instead of R-15 the two space extension would have been better.

I prefer the attacking variation to either extension, though. :)

Quote:
Why :b51: was unnecessary ? It seemed to prevent a linkage between the white weak group and it was sente.


White cannot connect. He can only threaten to connect.

But that raises an interesting question. Is :b51: a double sente? Each player has a big threat. Let us look at the threat to connect more closely.

If White connects, he lives in the corner and there is no more attack on the group on the top side. That's pretty good. Two birds with one stone. :) Except it's two stones. ;) That is, two moves.

Suppose that White does not make the threat to connect and play goes on while White fends off the attack. Then the threat to connect is meaningless, and Black has a small sente against the corner. Now suppose that the attack is successful and the group dies. Then White's threat to connect really is double sente and Black will wish that he had threatened the corner with sente first.

In the current state, is it double sente? No, it is not. Why not? Because while White plays two stones to connect, Black will make two big moves, gaining much more than the connection does. So :b51: is not necessary.

Still, is it worth it for Black to play his sente against the corner, to guard against it becoming double sente? Better safe than sorry. :)

That was pretty much Sakata's thinking in similar situations. Among pros, he was one who played kikashi early. Takagawa was the opposite. He played kikashi only when it was absolutely necessary. And since the two were rivals, in many of their games you can see the tension between these two ideas of when to play kikashi. Sometimes Takagawa paid the price for not playing kikashi early enough, and lost the chance.

In this case, sente against the corner is a certain kind of kikashi, called kikashi without loss. That is, the kikashi against the corner does not destroy other gainful alternatives for Black. And, while Black does not fear an immediate threat to connect by White, it is possible for the fighting to develop so that the kikashi is lost. In a way, that's not so bad, because it would mean that Black had killed the White group on the side. Still, there is an argument for taking the kikashi soon.
Author:  ez4u [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Game against a 3k
EDIT: After posting the comments below I just noticed you were Black!!!! :scratch: So what was the meaning of the comment on undoing 115?

At 115 in the game, Black played 1 below in answer to the marked stone. You commented, "My opponent wanted me to undo but I refused." This was poor gamesmanship (different than sportsmanship!). Of course your should have gracefully accepted!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X X O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X X X . X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . O X X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . 1 . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . X X O . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | X . . X . W X O O . X . . O O O O . . |
$$ | . X X . . . O X . . . . O X O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O X . , . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . X . . X . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What was your opponent going to do?!! Your stone on D10 was perfectly placed to kill Black. :blackeye:
Actually you should have played the marked stone instead of connecting at H9 on your 112. Black killed himself by taking away a liberty with 111. ;-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X X O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X X X . X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X . . 6 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . 5 O X X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . 4 3 O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . 2 1 X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . X X O . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | X . . X . W X O O . X . . O O O O . . |
$$ | . X X . . . O X . . . . O X O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O X . , . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . X . . X . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  lapos [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Game against a 3k
@ Bill Spight :
Quote:
Don't let ignorance of joseki prevent you from making the right play.
It's more that if I don't know at least one joseki I do not know the result, therefore I don't know if it is the right play. :)

I understand for the two space extension. As for the threat, yes, I prefered not to let white any chance :D

@ ez4u : I wrote this to explain why there was a variation at this point, my opponent wanted me to undo but I refused. I prefered to play with my mistakes and do the best to continue ;-)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Game against a 3k
lapos wrote:
Besides, I never play the two space high pincer. Maybe I should learn the basic joseki :oops:


Bill Spight wrote:
Don't let ignorance of joseki prevent you from making the right play.


Quote:
It's more that if I don't know at least one joseki I do not know the result, therefore I don't know if it is the right play. :)


Well, it sounds like you are saying that you do not know the joseki, therefore you never make the play. IMO, that is the wrong attitude. You are excluding that play from consideration. As amateurs, we can hardly ever be sure that a play is right or not. In the end, we have to rely upon our own judgement. That's all we have. We cannot develop judgement without using it. We cannot apply judgement to plays that we do not even consider.

Look at amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck. amatterof played :w7: without knowing the joseki. Given :b6: on tengen, he judged that it was a good play, maybe the best play, and backed his judgement. That is part of the the reason that he got as good as he is. :)
Author:  lapos [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Game against a 3k
Well I know you are right. Thing is, I am already trying my best to integrate new concepts in my games : using my influence well, thinking about the direction of play, peeping and trying some reductions. I feel like using rather new variations could put me into troubles.

Of course I will eventually have to do that to progress, but I guess I like to win and it's human to try to reduce the risk to have more chance to win :D Anyway, when my opponent does not follow the joseki then I have to think about the best move so I still have some opportunity to practice.

And after having seen the final game between Ke Jie and Qiu Jun I had the desire to try the extension Qiu Jun made on the lower right corner. As I feel my style is influence oriented it seems like it is a good tool to use. So I am not just following blindly the book's opening, I like to try sometime too :)
Author:  skydyr [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Game against a 3k
lapos wrote:
Of course I will eventually have to do that to progress, but I guess I like to win and it's human to try to reduce the risk to have more chance to win :D Anyway, when my opponent does not follow the joseki then I have to think about the best move so I still have some opportunity to practice.


It's worth considering that if you don't know a joseki, your similarly-ranked opponent probably doesn't either, or at least not how to punish deviations, so you're both in the same boat. Just use the joseki you do know as a comparison to judge if a result is equal or not, and if not, who it is biased towards.
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