After the 1 space jump,
, jumping into the corner with 
is inconsistent.In the variation with the second 1 space jump,
, 
should counter-pincer the White pincer stone. L-03 looks good. 
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| chinese opening game. Low 1-space pincer after keima http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12586 |
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| Author: | Fllecha [ Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | chinese opening game. Low 1-space pincer after keima |
Hi all, returned after some months of study and play (more study than play to be fair). I have a question about chinese opening in a variation that happens so many times in my game (I am 14k on IGS after 20 rated games starting from beginner class). I play the normal variation and then I approach the lower white corner. Online and in the video I watched about chinese opening the only variation covered is the one when white answers to the keima with another keima, but I coudn't find anything about the pincer that is played by almost all my opponents. Can you give me some comments about my variations I brought below? Can you give me a linear and simple way to handle that pincer without complicate fights or sealed-in groups? I brought also the variation that I hate and I am uncomfortable to play with. I hate ending with the corner but no way to the center. How to play then? Many thanks in advance |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: chinese opening game. Low 1-space pincer after keima |
After the 1 space jump, , jumping into the corner with is inconsistent.In the variation with the second 1 space jump, , should counter-pincer the White pincer stone. L-03 looks good.
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| Author: | Fllecha [ Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: chinese opening game. Low 1-space pincer after keima |
Bill Spight wrote: After the 1 space jump, , jumping into the corner with is inconsistent.I found in eidogo.com online joseki database that Guo Juan 5p consider that corner jump as a possible joseki after the exchange with the one space jump. The problem is black's weak group right? Bill Spight wrote: In the variation with the second 1 space jump, , should counter-pincer the White pincer stone. L-03 looks good. mm.. interesting. In general the double one space jump and "half corner taking" is good exchange for black  and in second 1 space jump, , ? How usually live black wall? |
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| Author: | DrStraw [ Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: chinese opening game. Low 1-space pincer after keima |
After jumping one time it is also possible to press with J4. |
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| Author: | Calvin Clark [ Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: chinese opening game. Low 1-space pincer after keima |
A few comments. In general, I think your idea of sente is different from mine. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi Fellecha, In your first variation, B jumps out to  :Bill and others have commented on this. Not only is playable, but some may say it's a good move.One idea -- not the only idea, but one of them -- is that Black now has follow-ups in two good directions -- the fuzzy grey areas. In particular,  (a) keima is a good follow-up to pressure  .In particular, (b) 2-space pincer is also a good follow-up to counter-pincer  , as Bill says,and (b) works well with your right side.There are multiple options to the exact follow-ups -- thus the fuzzy grey areas. But one general idea behind is that Black now has Miai of two good directions.
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| Author: | Charles Matthews [ Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: chinese opening game. Low 1-space pincer after keima |
Fllecha wrote: Hi all, returned after some months of study and play (more study than play to be fair). Welcome back! Fllecha wrote: Can you give me some comments about my variations I brought below? Can you give me a linear and simple way to handle that pincer without complicate fights or sealed-in groups? I brought also the variation that I hate and I am uncomfortable to play with. I hate ending with the corner but no way to the center. How to play then? Well, DFK players should not be concentrating on a single opening pattern in this way: that's my first reaction. Second, there is an order of plays issue here.  can easily be at K4, but you choose to play it at F3. K4 before F3 is actually natural from a framework point of view: it is the "organic" option for the Chinese style.If you really want to play at F3, why not do so at  ? This leads into the Kobayashi style, Mark I.Pros usually quite like taking a corner in sente; but it perhaps needs a while to understand the reasoning. I seem quite often here to be dealing with the F3 + F5 variation. My own feeling is that it risks making the C10 stone look good. To make life more interesting, play at H4.
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| Author: | Fllecha [ Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: chinese opening game. Low 1-space pincer after keima |
thank you guys now the situation is more clear: with the jumping move I have miai for follow up and that what I was looking for. Since people usually defend the side I have basically to counter pincer the pincering stone and put pressure on that. In a while (I think it's just a matter of time and experience to become at least 10K on IGS since I usually win by 70-90 points against 12-15k on IGS) I will post some games  happy new year all
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: chinese opening game. Low 1-space pincer after keima |
Fllecha wrote: thank you guys now the situation is more clear: with the jumping move I have miai for follow up and that what I was looking for. Since people usually defend the side I have basically to counter pincer the pincering stone and put pressure on that. Not really, if by counter pincer you don't mean the press at j4. J4 is a local joseki (though be warned that without black having the ladder white can push and cut to start a favourable fight, and we can also talk about how this joseki is not so popular for black as white develops both sides, though Cho Hunhyun did revitalise it, and also building such a wall tends to work well with the Chinese opening) that makes a reasonably connected shape and avoids making weak groups. Looser, counter-pincer moves like L3 are best thought of as non-joseki special purpose moves that get into a locally bad situation (your one-space jump group is weak and running whilst white builds the left side) that only makes global sense if you are building a very nice lower right area in exchange for f3 being weak and can get a plausible attack going on white's h3 group yourself. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: chinese opening game. Low 1-space pincer after keima |
Uberdude wrote: Fllecha wrote: thank you guys now the situation is more clear: with the jumping move I have miai for follow up and that what I was looking for. Since people usually defend the side I have basically to counter pincer the pincering stone and put pressure on that. Not really, if by counter pincer you don't mean the press at j4. J4 is a local joseki (though be warned that without black having the ladder white can push and cut to start a favourable fight, and we can also talk about how this joseki is not so popular for black as white develops both sides, though Cho Hunhyun did revitalise it, and also building such a wall tends to work well with the Chinese opening) that makes a reasonably connected shape and avoids making weak groups. Looser, counter-pincer moves like L3 are best thought of as non-joseki special purpose moves that get into a locally bad situation (your one-space jump group is weak and running whilst white builds the left side) that only makes global sense if you are building a very nice lower right area in exchange for f3 being weak and can get a plausible attack going on white's h3 group yourself. But after the second jump, the counter-pincer is indicated.
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