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Unusual game, 6k
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13811		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Pio2001 [ Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Unusual game, 6k
Hi,
What do you think of this game ? The opening was quite unusual.
I am White. Black resigns after move 107.



Here are my questions.

I avoided the urgent move 6 R16 that prevents the enclosure because I didn't like the idea of Black answering 7 R15 (I think it's a jôseki). I prefered to prevent the Black double wing with 6 R10. Is it correct ?

I played 20 R7 to get an immediate base. Should I have played R8 instead ?

Black 33 F17 looks too good. I wanted to do something to prevent Black to use his top right thickness , but I was afraid to die with the usual pincer jôseki White 34 H17(pincer) F15(jump) D14 (protect) J16 (shoulder hit). Can White live with all of Black thickness here ? So I completely improvised 34 H16 (high pincer). Not a jôseki as far as I know, but it seemed appropriate given the situation. Although, if I was Black I would have hit the star point with E16 to start a leaning attack on the H16 white stone. What do you think ?

Black jumping to the 3-3 point in answer to the pincer looks like a mistake in my eyes, isn't it ?

Is 38 F15 correct in order to close the center ?

Was 42 C14 necessary ?

What do you think of the bizarre exchange G9 (reducing White), F8 (blocking the reduction, helping the F5-D4 stones, that have a weak point in E4 because White didn't play D6, and maybe preventing Black to close the center) ?

Isn't it a bit soon for Black to resign ? What about K8 now, and Q9 + Q7 later ?

Attachments:
20161124-FairecommenterL19.sgf [2.19 KiB]
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Author:  Schachus [ Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unusual game, 6k
:w6: seems fine to me.
:w14: feels horrible, you should definitely extend. After your move, black has a ponnuki that sepereates you into two week groups.
Clearly, black should block at p17 for :b17:(q13 stone isnt worth anything).
As a result, white should play p17 at :w18: or :w20 in my opinion(you saw that the corner was in danger of dying after the black block, plus even if not, getting enclosed is very big.

My L+D is rather weak, but :w24: at R18 seems like ko to me, dont see anything better for white.

The result after 31 looks terrible for white of course, but at least there is still aji of getting out, since p19 is kind of sente for life(p19 o19 r19 s18 r16 seems ko), and if white answers inside, there is n18 to run on the first line(maybe starting with n18 is the better order, dont know..)
Author:  Uberdude [ Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unusual game, 6k
6: r16 is not urgent, though it's probably the most important place on the board being the only unapproached asymmetric corner looking to make a shimari. Wedge is probably ok too (particularly for sdk) but your reasoning is faulty: you welcome black making a double wing from a 3-3 as then 4-4 shoulder hit makes it suck (don't shoulder hit too early though!).
14: ZOMG! This move is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad. I had a heart attack. Might comment more when I get a defibrillator.
Author:  dfan [ Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unusual game, 6k
:w14: is the sort of move I would make when I think I am "playing lightly" but don't have an actual plan.

The first instinct when you have a single stone in atari should be to extend, especially when your opponent does not have supporting stones in the direction of your extension. I am not saying it is always the best move, just the first thing you should look at. The main reason is that you have just made your stone three times as hard to capture:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W One liberty
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X . . |
$$ . . X O a . |
$$ . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Three liberties
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X a . |
$$ . . X O 1 b |
$$ . . O X c . |
$$ . . . . . . |[/go]

In this particular case, Black simply does not have time to capture you while dealing with all of his own weaknesses.
Author:  Pio2001 [ Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unusual game, 6k
Thank you everyone for your comments. They are very useful to me because I didn't consider this move as especially bad (although I know the proverb "always extend from an atari on the third line", which I failed to apply here).
I didn't see that extending actually made the two stones strong.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unusual game, 6k
Uberdude wrote:
...
14: ZOMG! This move is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad. I had a heart attack. Might comment more when I get a defibrillator.


@Uberdude: Since you have lived this long, I conclude that you must not watch too many 6K games. :)
It is not unusual at that level.

Sure, it would be bad for a dan player, but for a 6K it is only a minor mistake.


@Pio2001: Just so you don't inadvertently bump off one of the stronger players on this forum, I suggest reading this: http://senseis.xmp.net/?AddASecondStoneAndSacrificeBoth
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unusual game, 6k
Move 97 at E8 might have been better for black.
Author:  Fedya [ Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unusual game, 6k
Quote:
@Uberdude: Since you have lived this long, I conclude that you must not watch too many 6K games.

If my study journal hasn't killed him, I don't know what will. :mrgreen:
Author:  Uberdude [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unusual game, 6k
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
@Uberdude: Since you have lived this long, I conclude that you must not watch too many 6K games. :)
It is not unusual at that level.

Sure, it would be bad for a dan player, but for a 6K it is only a minor mistake.


I disagree: I have watched/taught plenty of sdks, and I think this is a major mistake for a 6k. What do I mean by major? Well, one objective way to measure it would be to analyze the game with CrazyStone and look for the moves with biggest deltas, the difference in winning probability between the move played and CrazyStone's preferred move. I think this would at or near the of the list. But others of those big deltas would be hard moves, clever tesujis, solving dan-level life-and-deaths etc. This is a mistake that it well within a 6ks skill not to make. In fact I think most 20 kyus would save the stone. That might just be because they don't read far and think atari => extend, but that's a pretty good instinct to have whereas maybe Pio2001 overthought it and did some hallucinatory reading and thought the stone would die if he extended; though as your linked SL page says even if that's true it's usually better to sacrifice more stones, but that doesn't apply here as extending is not to sacrifice, it is to save an important cutting stone and separate black into 4 unconnected stones!

Pio2001 wrote:
I didn't consider this move as especially bad (although I know the proverb "always extend from an atari on the third line", which I failed to apply here).
I didn't see that extending actually made the two stones strong.

Btw I've never heard 'the' proverb "always extend from an atari on the third line", and can easily think of a few counterexamples, plus real proverbs don't say "always" as there are always exceptions ;-). I'd say the appropriate idea here is "save the cutting stone", I don't know if that is a proverb.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unusual game, 6k
Uberdude wrote:
Pio2001 wrote:
I didn't consider this move as especially bad (although I know the proverb "always extend from an atari on the third line", which I failed to apply here).
I didn't see that extending actually made the two stones strong.

Btw I've never heard 'the' proverb "always extend from an atari on the third line", and can easily think of a few counterexamples, plus real proverbs don't say "always" as there are always exceptions ;-). I'd say the appropriate idea here is "save the cutting stone", I don't know if that is a proverb.


I suspect that the "proverb" is a kyuicized version of "Make two, then throw away."

There is a proverb that says to capture the cutting stone. I suppose that it follows to save the cutting stone if you can. ;)
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