One more on my quest for serious games.
My opponent admitted later that he(?) "just fooled around" at some points. Still good enough against me. I rather enjoyed this game, instead of attacking aggressivly to win, he(?) just played better.
But i often can’t distinguish between good play and “fooling around” that just works due to my little experience. Some comments on that would be cool.
But anything will be mostly appreciated.

Afterthought: If someone prefers a file without my own review and variations, i will gladly provide that.

Hi Hrab,

Strange.

Cross-cuts are notoriously difficult. That's probably why W played .
However, there's a basic shape here that's very nice to learn.

In your variation -- let's just ignore W's cross-cut stone ( , at R4 ) for the moment.
You made the wrong atari. Can you find the correct atari.
( There are no doubt many more mistakes in the fundamentals after this,
but to me, to learn this atari is worth this game. )

Many thanks Ed

Finding the atari was easy, once you told me. I totally agree about the importance! I had similar situations before, though without the crosscut, and just blocked below (my opponents too). I’ll try out some variations with supporting white stones in the corner to stock up my toolbox.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Atari
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X . . . .|
$$ . . X . O X . . .|
$$ . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Continuation
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X . . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 . . . .|
$$ . 9 8 6 7 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

Corrected diagram in post #10, i leave that here so that the following posts still make sense

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Original Situation
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X 9 . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 8 . . .|
$$ . . . 6 7 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

Do you mean this one?:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?AtariFromCrosscut
It will take some time to work through this.


And many a thread about it! And maybe even more opinions on the definition
A bit frustrating for me, since i like a structured approach, but for the moment i think it’s best to keep on playing, reviewing, getting reviewed.
Though "First Fundamentals" looks very tempting …

Hint, hint.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Original Situation
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X O . . .|
$$ . . X . W X . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

How many liberties (dame, DAH-MEH) does have?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X O . . .|
$$ . . X . W X . . .|
$$ . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . . 4 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . 6 . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I’m not sure wether you are
a) pointing at the obvious: ladder,
or
b) i’m thick as a brick.

In case a) thinking of it as a ladder probably anchors it better in the mind.

You showed in your diagram white killing black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c added for clarity
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X 9 . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 8 . . .|
$$ . . . 6 7 0 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

I think Bill was hinting that black can do better...

Yes, I was hinting at the ladder. Sorry, I didn't realize that it was obvious to you.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

So it was b)
The brick

Thanks emeraldemon

Nothing to feel sorry for! I still miss obvious points frequently, and sometimes i’ve just "got tomatos on my eyes" (don’t know how to say that in english )

My previous post shouldn’t sound ungrateful or grumpy at all. I was just putting down my thoughts quickly without thinking about how they might sound without gestures and facial expressions.

I hope i didn’t step on your toes and if so i’m really sorry!

On my board i played it out like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Original Situation Corrected
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 7 . . .|
$$ . . . 6 . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

But replaying it in the diagram i didn’t check it properly.
Still my blind spot: future atari

Black can still do better.
Bill mentioned white's liberties. Why?

Now i got it, there is a ‘real’ ladder ( at o2), not just a ‘kind of‘ ladder

Many thanks to both of you for talking me through it!

(i think i’ll give meself the “brick-head of the day award” )

You should give yourself the "learned something cool today" award

You are right! I’ll take that one too.

No problemo.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Yeah, the White string is a goner. But a) you took an extra move to dispatch it, and b) it still has aji. White can threaten to save it.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Hi Hrab,

You're very welcome.

Supplements to Bill and emerald's notes:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X , . . .|
$$ . . X b O X . . .|
$$ . . . . a . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ ------------------[/go]

• In Chinese, there are actually different descriptions for the two starting moves (a) and (b).
  This distinction seems to be missing in English ;
  not sure about in Japanese or in Deutsch.
• Read as far as you can. ( Re: missing the ladder; post 3. )
• Liberties, liberties, liberties. ( Posts 4, 10 )