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 Post subject: Game over?
Post #1 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:12 am 
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I just played this game, where I resigned as black after another big loss.
But reviewing trying to count (both manually, on OGS and with Leela), it's now looking like still an even game.
Could someone weigh in who's real good at counting? I'd very much appreciate it!!

I really hope I didn't resign too early. If so, I should start learning to count properly as soon as possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Game over?
Post #2 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:55 am 
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First rule:

Never resign.

Second rule:

Even if you sometimes resign, do not resign at move 253. Play it out. Do not waste time counting. Play it out and then count.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Ian Butler
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 Post subject: Re: Game over?
Post #3 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:33 am 
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Third rule:

If you do sometimes resign, do not resign a won game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play resigned a won game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O O . . . O O X X O . X O O O O X . |
$$ | X O . . . O O . O X X X X O X O O . . |
$$ | O . . . O O . . O O X . O X X X O O O |
$$ | . . O O O . O . O X X . X X X , X X X |
$$ | O O O O X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O X . O . O X . . X . O . O . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O . X O O X O X X X . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . O O X X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O X X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | O O O . X O X . . O O O O X . X . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O O . X O . X . . O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X X X O O X . . O O X . |
$$ | X X . X X O O O O X X O X X O O X X . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . X O O O O X . O O X X |
$$ | . O O O X X . X X X X O O X X X O O X |
$$ | . . . O O X X W X X O O . O X . O . O |
$$ | . . . O . O X W X O . . O O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . O . . . . O X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


You don't have to count to see that Black has probably won, you can eye-ball it. The White groups on the right are dead. The Black groups on the left are dead, except for a group of around 25 stones in the bottom left, which have a second eye by capturing the :wc: stones. White has intruded into the bottom right with around 20 plus stones. So it looks like Black is winning.

But this is a case where an accurate count might help.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Should Black risk a ko fight?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O O . . . O O X X O . X O O O O X . |
$$ | X O . . . O O . O X X X X O X O O . . |
$$ | O . . . O O . . O O X . O X X X O O O |
$$ | . . O O O . O . O X X . X X X , X X X |
$$ | O O O O X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O X . O . O X . . X . O . O . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O . X O O X O X X X . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . O O X X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O X X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | O O O . X O X . . O O O O X . X . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O O . X O . X . . O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X X X O O X . . O O X . |
$$ | X X . X X O O O O X X O X X O O X X . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . X O O O O X . O O X X |
$$ | . O O O X X . X X X X O O X X X O O X |
$$ | . . . O O X X W X X O O . O X . O . O |
$$ | . . . O . O X W X O 1 . O O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . O 3 2 . . O X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Does Black need to make and win this ko to win the game?

Actually, the ko is technically correct, and worth fighting to get the experience. :) But the "safe" play is for Black just to take the :wc: stones.

Counting this board is easy if we remember that territory and area scoring are within one point of each other, except in some cases. Counting the Black area is pretty easy. Since Black is giving 6.5 komi, an area score of 184 is enough to win. :)

Let's get started. The P - T files belong to Black by area scoring, for 19x5 = 95 pts. Plus 16 + 13 + 9 + 10 = 143 pts. There are 9 more stones on the top. for 152 pts. I'll leave it to you to count the Black area on the bottom. Note that there are some neutral points on the bottom, as well. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Game over?
Post #4 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:37 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
First rule:

Never resign.

Second rule:

Even if you sometimes resign, do not resign at move 253. Play it out. Do not waste time counting. Play it out and then count.


Oh believe me, this is the lessons I learned most this game. Silly of me. I was so focused on my two big losses that I forgot my opponent had two equally big losses.
What didn't help was the Byo-Yomi of 15 seconds I was in :)

I guess I resigned because I didn't want to waste my opponent's time, which really shows my lack of insight in the counting of the game. I should really get some basics in it, if only to get a rough estimate. I'm very often wrong in who's winning and sometimes I think: I lost and then win by 30 points or the other way around. It's next on my list of priorities.

Concerning you're scoring, I'm a bit confused. Aren't prisoners counted as double? If so, you couldn't count the P-T files? Also, where do you get the 16, 13, 9 and 10 from?
Yes, this shows my absolute lack of knowledge in counting and scoring :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Game over?
Post #5 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:47 am 
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Black wins, if I counted correctly.

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 Post subject: Re: Game over?
Post #6 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:18 am 
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Ian Butler wrote:
Concerning you're scoring, I'm a bit confused. Aren't prisoners counted as double? If so, you couldn't count the P-T files? Also, where do you get the 16, 13, 9 and 10 from?
Yes, this shows my absolute lack of knowledge in counting and scoring :oops:


Sorry. There are two main modern ways of scoring go, by territory (Japan and Korea) and by area (China and AGA). Normally they differ by at most one point. That is the case here.

In area scoring, which is what I was using, instead of counting prisoners and dead stones you count your own living stones. If each player has placed the same number of stones on the board, the result is the same, with some exceptions depending upon the specific rules.

File O has 16 pts. of area for Black, from O-4 upwards, file N has 13 such points, etc. (I ignored the living Black stones in the Black group on the bottom because we were counting them later.)

Note: Saying that a score of 184 was enough for Black to win is because, unless there is a seki, so that some points belong to neither side, the sum of the Black board score and the White board score is 361 by area scoring. So if Black has 184 points then White has 177 points or less. 184 - 177 = 7, which is more than the 6.5 komi. Since White played the last stone and had played at least as many stones as Black, Black could not be ahead by 6 points of territory plus one stone.

----

On counting during the game.

Normally you want a quick estimate, particularly when much of the board is still unsettled. You can take the time to count a territory, but you have to remember the count and, if its borders change, you either have to do it again or remember what you counted before and then count what has changed. Even in the days before I had heard about area scoring, I often found it easier to eyeball area rather than territory. In this game consider the difficulties of counting each point of territory, or counting by twos, which can be quicker, versus noting that Black has all the area on the last five files. That's 95 pts. of area vs. 43 pts. of territory plus 48 pts. for 24 dead stones. (I'm not sure where the White prisoners were taken.)

With practice you can often make quick estimates within a few points. That's true of both territory and area. For instance, the lower left corner has between 10 and 15 pts. of territory, which you can tell in an instant, without counting. Similarly, it has between 20 and 25 pts. of area, which you can also tell instantly. (With practice, OC.) The bottom left Black is easy to count at 7 pts., 3 pts. of territory plus 2 dead stones. (It is worth more because of Black's potential, OC.) With one look I guessed it as around 30 pts. of area. Off by 2, not bad. OC, I have had a lot of practice. ;)

For a framework a very rough rule of thumb is to count it as one third to one half what it covers. That is based upon the expectation that the opponent can invade or reduce it, taking away one fourth to one third of it. If he takes away one third, that leaves you with two thirds, for a net of one third. If he takes away one fourth, that leaves you with three fourths, for a net of one half.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Game over?
Post #7 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:44 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Black wins, if I counted correctly.


Makes me cry :cry:

Haha thanks. I probably learned more from this game than if I'd won, so I consider it a success. :tmbup:
(what did I learn - why, to "never" resign, of course)

Bill Spight wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
Concerning you're scoring, I'm a bit confused. Aren't prisoners counted as double? If so, you couldn't count the P-T files? Also, where do you get the 16, 13, 9 and 10 from?
Yes, this shows my absolute lack of knowledge in counting and scoring :oops:


Sorry. There are two main modern ways of scoring go, by territory (Japan and Korea) and by area (China and AGA). Normally they differ by at most one point. That is the case here.

In area scoring, which is what I was using, instead of counting prisoners and dead stones you count your own living stones. If each player has placed the same number of stones on the board, the result is the same, with some exceptions depending upon the specific rules.

File O has 16 pts. of area for Black, from O-4 upwards, file N has 13 such points, etc. (I ignored the living Black stones in the Black group on the bottom because we were counting them later.)

Note: Saying that a score of 184 was enough for Black to win is because, unless there is a seki, so that some points belong to neither side, the sum of the Black board score and the White board score is 361 by area scoring. So if Black has 184 points then White has 177 points or less. 184 - 177 = 7, which is more than the 6.5 komi. Since White played the last stone and had played at least as many stones as Black, Black could not be ahead by 6 points of territory plus one stone.


Thanks for the info (and the help you consistently give me, I can't stress that enough, I'm very grateful!)
I'm still not entirely up to date with what area scoring EXACTLY is, but I have an idea of it, now. Seems strange, though, that area scoring and territory scoring are so equal. Seems to me dead stones would make a big difference. If you took 10 stones while taking territory, compared to just taking the 10 points of territory without capturing, that'd be a big difference between area scoring and terr scoring, no?

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 Post subject: Re: Game over?
Post #8 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:23 am 
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Ian Butler wrote:
Thanks for the info (and the help you consistently give me, I can't stress that enough, I'm very grateful!)


I added a couple of paragraphs to my previous note. Take a look. :)

Quote:
I'm still not entirely up to date with what area scoring EXACTLY is, but I have an idea of it, now. Seems strange, though, that area scoring and territory scoring are so equal. Seems to me dead stones would make a big difference. If you took 10 stones while taking territory, compared to just taking the 10 points of territory without capturing, that'd be a big difference between area scoring and terr scoring, no?


Locally, yes, globally, no. Let me illustrate with a 3x4 board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 3x4 game
$$ -----------
$$ | . O X . |
$$ | 7 O X . |
$$ | . O X . |
$$ -----------[/go]


Black kills the White group and wins by 12 pts. by area scoring, i.e., the whole board. (You may verify the kill.)
Since Black has played one more stone than White, we know that Black wins by 11 pts. by territory scoring. We don't have to bother to count. But let's do so. Black gets 5 pts. of territory plus 6 pts. for the dead stones, a total of 11 pts., as advertised.

If you just look at the left side of the board, Black has 6 pts. of area but 8 pts. of territory. You have to take the whole board into account to see the near equivalence.

Edit:
Suppose that White plays on and forces Black to take the stones on the left. Then the board may look like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 3x4 game
$$ -----------
$$ | X . X O |
$$ | X . X O |
$$ | . . X . |
$$ -----------[/go]


The area score remains unchanged at 12 pts. What about the territory score? Black has 5 pts. of territory plus 4 prisoners plus 2 dead stones, for 13 pts. White has 2 pts. for two prisoners. Net territory score: 11 pts. As advertised. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Game over?
Post #9 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:42 am 
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Ian Butler wrote:
I'm still not entirely up to date with what area scoring EXACTLY is, but I have an idea of it, now. Seems strange, though, that area scoring and territory scoring are so equal. Seems to me dead stones would make a big difference. If you took 10 stones while taking territory, compared to just taking the 10 points of territory without capturing, that'd be a big difference between area scoring and terr scoring, no?


As an exemple :

There is 361 points on the board.

Let's say that black and white play each 120 moves. Black has captured 10 white stones, and white, 20 black stones

With territory scoring, black has "Black territory+10" points, and white has "White territory+20" points.

The score difference is "Black territory - white territory - 10"


With area scoring, black has 100 remaining stones on the board (120 played minus the 20 captured), so black score is "Black territory+100". White has 110 stones on the board, so the score is "White territory + 110"

The score difference is "Black territory - white territory - 10"


Both are the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Game over?
Post #10 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:44 am 
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Ian Butler wrote:
I'm still not entirely up to date with what area scoring EXACTLY is, but I have an idea of it, now. Seems strange, though, that area scoring and territory scoring are so equal. Seems to me dead stones would make a big difference. If you took 10 stones while taking territory, compared to just taking the 10 points of territory without capturing, that'd be a big difference between area scoring and terr scoring, no?

Territory scoring: I get 10 extra points for capturing your stones.
Area scoring: You get 10 fewer points because your dead stones don't count towards your total.

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 Post subject: Re: Game over?
Post #11 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:25 am 
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Oooh, of course, because the stones come off the board, so there are fewer stones on the board :)

I get it now. Thanks for helping me out!

@Bill, thanks for the additional paragraphs. Maybe area scoring is the way to go to count ingame. I bought a new batch of Go books today, though, with Positiona Judgement (Cho Chikun) among them, I've heard this book also covers estimating scores. Though I have also heard it might be too tough for my current level so it might stay closed for at least another few months. I'll have to see when I get it.

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