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5k vs 6k some questions along the way
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15579		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Fllecha [ Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  5k vs 6k some questions along the way
Hi all!

An interesting game I think but I scattered some questions along the way. Can you please help me?
I am black
Thanks in advance

Author:  EdLee [ Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Maria,

:b30: How do you feel about just pushing at E17 on :b21: instead of the jump-attach, and the subsequent variations ? (*)
( The entire concept of joseki has changed since AlphaGo;
every move must be evaluated based on the whole board. )

:b33: (*)

:b45: C8 ? D12, etc. ? (*)

:b55: Did you consider E11 atari, then H12 hane ? (*)

:b57: Slow ? H12 hane, and M13 hane, seem big ( control of the center ).(*)

:w58: If you push at C7, W has to worry about her lower left corner.

:b59: Maybe unclear; depends on your reading and plan.
( "elephant's eye" in itself is too local, insufficient global context ? )



______
(*) Curious about Leela's evaluations.
Author:  Tryss [ Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 5k vs 6k some questions along the way
For 21, LZ consider "only" the D17 jump attach. She consider the E17 white answer to be a mistake (C17 is evaluated to 53.8% while E17 is evaluated to 47.4%)

For move 30, she slightly prefer the P17 approach (47%) to D10 (45%)

For move 31, the top right shimari is prefered to the turn, and if black play the turn, Leela still want to approach the top right corner (but she prefer the 1 space low approach instead of the 1 space high approach)

For move 33, she wants to play P17 for the usual joseki (with the solid connection, not the tiger mouth). I guess the idea is that white is cramped and can't extend more than two spaces.

For move 35, she prefer when black take the corner with Q17


At this point, the win rate for both players is between 45-55%, so Leela think that the game is very close.

Edit :

For move 45, her favorite move is to protect the M16 cut, and her second favorite is to enter the right side at B15, a move that was seriously considered multiple times after move 30. The main sequence is this one :

Go Diagram
Nice reduction
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Nice reduction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 7 O O O X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 2 8 . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  EdLee [ Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks, Tryss.
Quote:
(C3 is evaluated to 53.8% while E17 is evaluated to 47.4%)
Probably meant C17. And the winrate is for the color of each corresponding move ? ( AG-Teaching tool's winrates are all for :black: )
Author:  Tryss [ Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 5k vs 6k some questions along the way
Yes, I was talking about C17 (will edit) and the win rate is indeed for each color (not like alpha go). I used Lizzie to get them, the network is not the most recent, so results can vary
Author:  Uberdude [ Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 5k vs 6k some questions along the way
Move 15: o3 feels a bit soft/low, try to build up to the 4th line (o4/p4). As played white can try to bully you into taking the lower side in an inefficient manner whilst solidifying the lower left corner and getting some useful outside stones (this is white's dream black can try to resist).
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 6 . X . 2 . . 3 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X 0 5 . . . . . X 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Move 17: I prefer to make a shimari than approach. One reason is his extension on right side means you can't develop well that way so when approached you are less comfortable. Second is influence of bots and current fashion.

Q1: Reason it is locally better is black has good shape (eyes) and some territory up to 4th line, plus c16 cut aji is significant. White has a wall with no eyes and no territory. If the wall can work well to make a moyo then it can be ok. Bear in mind the wall can become weak if you invade around d12 area and run out. If you don't like this result that's another reason to not approach, or c14 approach to break up the board into little areas and avoid moyos.

Move 31: There is some slight value to taking a liberty, but j14 jump is faster (j16 cut doesn't work, but can be peeped). Or shimari.

Q2: Maybe, or attach under as LZ said. Or, I'm sounding like a broken record, shimari earlier!

Q3: d12 is first thought if over there, aim to attack wall above a bit to help not die and settle.
Author:  Fllecha [ Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 5k vs 6k some questions along the way
Ty! That helped
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