Life In 19x19
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First 19x19 game...brutal.
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Author:  sleepyEDB [ Wed May 02, 2018 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  First 19x19 game...brutal.
See if you can spot where things went wrong. I'll bet that you can... :mrgreen:



sleepy

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Author:  EdLee [ Wed May 02, 2018 1:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Sleepy,

:b16: D13 ( simple extend ) is a lot of profit
( not necessarily immediate cash, but profit ).

:b22: Your cut is possible ( depending on your plan ),
but also recognize the G12 turn -- re: SmallGaps .

( :b22: , :b24: ) This combination makes little sense.
See White's very nice shape after :w25: .
( Maybe you didn't have a plan on :b22: ? Did you cut for the sake of it,
without sufficient reading or evaluation ? )

:b26: Quite slow. Locally, at least N17.

:b30: Good. This time you didn't miss ( re: G12 and SmallGaps ).

:b34: Not good. This first-line hane is too early.
And did you read the o17 cut before you decided on ( :b34:, :b36:, :b38: ) ?

:b38: OK, you fixed it ; better to play P18 directly on :b34: .

:b40: Tenuki from :w39: is good, but this move is questionable.
What's your plan with :b40: ?

:w41: How does giving White 4-th line territory -- a lot of cash -- help you ?
( re: :b16: at D13, 4-th line profit ).

:b44: Strange, like :b26: . Maybe you picked this up, incorrectly, from some other games you watched... Beware it becomes a bad habit: get rid of it.

:w45: Terrible ( unforced, self-inflicted misery ).

:b49: Locally, Q12 or R12 better.

:w51: ( Unforced, self-inflicted misery. ) Locally, S12 better.
Globally, very slow. White must tenuki.

:w55: Very slow.

:b56: You help White too much.

:w57: White helps you back. :) Just Q5.

:b60: Very good. One of your best moves in this game -- re: SmallGaps.

:b62: ...followed by a big miss. R5. re: SmallGaps.

:b64: Strange; misread? Quiz: how do you capture the 2 P6 :white: stones ?
Hint: start with N6. Can you see the sequence?
:w67: Mistake to run.

:b70: Ah...so close. Find the correct sequence, instead of :b70: .
N9, net, no ladder. Or, you can N8-atari once more, then if White still runs, net at N10.
Key points:
- Continue to play. A lot. Need tons of experience.
- Improve your reading ( Go problems ).
- In general, a net is better than a ladder.
- You're correct: still need to study ladders.
- Foundation ( fundamentals ), shapes; re: SmallGaps.
Author:  dfan [ Wed May 02, 2018 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First 19x19 game...brutal.
Congrats on your first 19x19 game! The first thing you should do next is play ten more. :)
Author:  nasdaq [ Wed May 02, 2018 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First 19x19 game...brutal.
thanks for posting, i had forgotten what it was like to be a beginner.

wow, it was like the whole board was free with wild abandon or some kind of free jazz drummer.

makes me think about the fundamentals of how to play the game as in: we each have our own unique style, "greedy", "cautious", etc... most of the time i'm not aware of mine. like making some kind of art.
Author:  Fedya [ Wed May 02, 2018 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First 19x19 game...brutal.
Ed:

The net no longer works after :w65:. White has the atari at R5. :b64: should have been at N6, as you said earlier.
Author:  mitsun [ Wed May 02, 2018 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First 19x19 game...brutal.
The ladder actually works, if B aims it just right :)
Author:  EdLee [ Wed May 02, 2018 5:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Fedya, thanks.
Author:  sleepyEDB [ Thu May 03, 2018 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
Hi Sleepy,

Hi Ed!

EdLee wrote:
:b16: D13 ( simple extend ) is a lot of profit ( not necessarily cash, but profit ).

Thanks. I think I was trying to harass the white stones while also influencing the middle. As if I could handle both at once.

EdLee wrote:
:b22: Your cut is possible ( depending on your plan ),
but also recognize the G12 turn -- re: SmallGaps .

Thanks for the link. I had no idea about Small Gaps

EdLee wrote:
( :b22: , :b24: ) This combination makes little sense.
See White's very nice shape after :w25: .

Yes, I see it now.

EdLee wrote:
( So you didn't have a plan on :b22: ; you cut for the sake of it,
without sufficient reading or evaluation. )

100% correct. I cut for the sake of cutting without sufficient reading or evaluation.

EdLee wrote:
:b26: Quite slow. Locally, at least N17.

Thanks, I'll try to keep this in mind

EdLee wrote:
:b34: Not good. This first-line hane is too early.

I was just applying the 'hane on the head of two and three stones' rule; does it not apply on the first line?

EdLee wrote:
And did you read the o17 cut before you decided on ( :b34:, :b36:, :b38: ) ?

No, definitely not. I saw the cut afterward and realized I needed to protect it

EdLee wrote:
:b38: OK, you fixed it ; better to play P18 directly on :b34: .

Did you mean P17?

EdLee wrote:
:b40: Tenuki from :w39: is good, but this move is questionable.
What's your plan with :b40: ?

My plan was to contain or reduce white's presence on side, and to prevent them from going into the middle

EdLee wrote:
:w41: How does giving White 4-th line territory -- a lot of cash -- help you ?
( re: :b16: at D13, 4-th line profit ).

It didn't.

EdLee wrote:
:b44: Strange, like :b26: . Maybe you picked this up, incorrectly, from some other games you watched... Need to get rid of it.

Yep. I think I panicked and blurted out 'iron pillar!' in my head.

EdLee wrote:
:w45: Terrible ( unforced, self-inflicted misery ).

That bad, huh? I must admit that I don't see why :sad:

EdLee wrote:
:b49: Locally, Q12 or R12 better.

49 was white, so I'm assuming you meant :b50: would've been better at Q12 or R12 to protect against the cut?

EdLee wrote:
:b56: You help White too much.

Would O3 have been better or at least acceptable?

EdLee wrote:
:b60: Very good. One of your best moves in this game -- re: SmallGaps.

Thanks! I will definitely spend some time with Small Gaps as it seems to come up often...

EdLee wrote:
:b62: ...followed by a big miss. R5. re: SmallGaps.

...and frequently to my detriment.

EdLee wrote:
:b64: Strange; misread? Quiz: how do you capture the 2 P6 :white: stones ? Hint: start with N6. Can you see the sequence?

No, I can't. I really wish I could but I can't. I started with N6 in the game trying to capture those stones and we know how that ended

EdLee wrote:
:w67: Mistake to run.

I don't imagine you're saying white should've just let those two stones be captured, but I can't see what else he could've done

EdLee wrote:
:b70: Ah...so close. Find the correct sequence, instead of :b70: . N9, net, no ladder. Or, you can N8-atari once more, then if White still runs, net at N10.

Sigh. It's always so easy in hindsight.

EdLee wrote:
Key points:
- Continue to play. A lot. Need tons of experience.
- Improve your reading ( Go problems ).
- In general, a net is better than a ladder.
- You're correct: still need to study ladders.
- Foundation ( fundamentals ), shapes; re: SmallGaps.

Thanks, Ed. I really appreciate your time and insight on this review. :bow:



Well that was an eye-opener. I'm a bit surprised at the amount of problems that occurred before my self-inflicted ladder disaster as I had thought things were going at least acceptably well up to that point. :oops: From your suggestions I already know that my reading and evaluation are abysmmal; I mean non-existent. There are times when I'm doing tsumego problems that I'm genuinely surprised when the app makes a move and my stones disappear. This is what happened at w119 when he took my group; I had no idea it was coming. :o

In all seriousness, whatever progress I thought I'd made in the last month on 9x9 is pretty much gone; 19x19 is a whoooole other ballgame. I feel like I'm drowning and someone just handed me a heavier rock. :mrgreen:


sleepy
Author:  sleepyEDB [ Thu May 03, 2018 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: First 19x19 game...brutal.
Fedya wrote:
Ed:

The net no longer works after :w65:. White has the atari at R5. :b64: should have been at N6, as you said earlier.

Hi Fedya,

Thanks for the reply. I hadn't even come close to considering that group as being in jeopardy and affecting my pursuit of the two white stones. Wheeee! :mrgreen:


sleepy
Author:  sleepyEDB [ Thu May 03, 2018 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: First 19x19 game...brutal.
mitsun wrote:
The ladder actually works, if B aims it just right :)

Hi mitsun,

Thank you for the reply! Would you mind elaborating? I've played with that ladder and I keep running into white. I'm assuming it needs to extend toward the upper left corner, yes?


sleepy
Author:  sleepyEDB [ Thu May 03, 2018 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: First 19x19 game...brutal.
mitsun wrote:
The ladder actually works, if B aims it just right :)

Hi mitsun,

Thank you for the reply! I've played with the ladder a bit and from what I can see it works if I extend upward to N8, white plays at O9, and then I cap at O10 to begin the ladder. Is that correct?


sleepy
Author:  sleepyEDB [ Thu May 03, 2018 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: First 19x19 game...brutal.
dfan wrote:
Congrats on your first 19x19 game! The first thing you should do next is play ten more. :)

Hi dfan, thanks for the reply!

I definitely plan on it. I've volunteered myself for an experiment of sorts (no, not the LSD micro-dosing Go experiment :mrgreen: ) on OGS to see how various methods of learning affect rate of improvement, one of the tenants being I needed to switch to 19x19 games. Here's the link if you're interested: LINK


sleepy
Author:  sleepyEDB [ Thu May 03, 2018 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: First 19x19 game...brutal.
nasdaq wrote:
thanks for posting, i had forgotten what it was like to be a beginner.

wow, it was like the whole board was free with wild abandon or some kind of free jazz drummer.

makes me think about the fundamentals of how to play the game as in: we each have our own unique style, "greedy", "cautious", etc... most of the time i'm not aware of mine. like making some kind of art.

Hi nasdaq, thanks for the reply!

I bet it must be interesting to look back on the raw beginner after having played for some time. If most of what I do doesn't make sense to me yet, I can only imagine what it looks like to you guys! :lol:


sleepy
Author:  dfan [ Thu May 03, 2018 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
sleepyEDB wrote:
There are times when I'm doing tsumego problems that I'm genuinely surprised when the app makes a move and my stones disappear. This is what happened at w119 when he took my group; I had no idea it was coming. :o

This still happens to me sometimes. :)
Author:  EdLee [ Thu May 03, 2018 11:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
:b34: Not good. This first-line hane is too early.
I was just applying the 'hane on the head of two and three stones' rule; does it not apply on the first line?
  • All proverbs are merely guidelines. Each proverb doesn't tell us when it applies and when it fails ;
  • To "just apply a proverb" is to put the cart before the horse ;
  • :w33: is not the head ; it's the foot ; re: head v. foot
  • Regardless of any proverb, this first-line hane is too early ; it's a move for later, not now.
Author:  EdLee [ Thu May 03, 2018 11:14 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
better to play P18 directly on :b34: .
Did you mean P17?
Later, if the game progresses to the end game,
White may play the first-line hane N19.
After White N19, study the end-game situation if :b34: at P18, versus at P17.
Author:  EdLee [ Thu May 03, 2018 11:19 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
:b49: Locally, Q12 or R12 better.
49 was white, so I'm assuming you meant :b50: would've been better at Q12 or R12 to protect against the cut?
Yes, typo: :b50: .
Author:  EdLee [ Thu May 03, 2018 11:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Var. :b64:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . X X O O . |
$$ . . 5 . X O O . . |
$$ . . . 4 X O . . . |
$$ . . 3 2 X O . . . |
$$ . . 1 O O X . . . |
$$ . . O X X X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$--------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . 7 . X X O O . |
$$ . . . 6 X O O . . |
$$ . . 5 4 X O . . . |
$$ . . 3 2 X O . . . |
$$ . . 1 O O X . . . |
$$ . . O X X X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$--------------------[/go]

Lessons in the fundamentals of Go, chapter 1: Ladders and Nets.
Author:  EdLee [ Thu May 03, 2018 11:44 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
bit surprised at the amount of problems that occurred before my self-inflicted ladder
( You = We )
Attachment:
IMG_0607.JPG
IMG_0607.JPG [ 18.64 KiB | Viewed 11967 times ]
Author:  sleepyEDB [ Thu May 03, 2018 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First 19x19 game...brutal.
Hi Ed, thanks for the replies!

1. Great info re: the first-line hane and blindly applying proverbs. I will study head vs. foot
2. I'll study the end-game situation and :b34: on P18 vs P17
3. Cool, thanks for clarifying the typo
4. Thanks for posting those variations. I was able to play with them in sabaki once I read your hidden text re: the net at N9
5. LOL, that pie chart is spot-on! :lol:


sleepy
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