Life In 19x19
http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Where did I go wrong?? Review Request
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15762		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  BlindGroup [ Tue May 22, 2018 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Where did I go wrong?? Review Request
I have a lot of trouble with running fights. Ironically, I actually started the fight in this game, and it seemed like a very good idea until it didn't :shock:

My review of the game is that the following moves are critical:

:w12: Joseki mistake. Allows me to cut off some white stones.

:b41: After what seemed like an odd pincer (:w30:), this forces white to save two weak groups split by a weak black group with at least one eye. And to make it even better, the two white groups are bookended by relatively strong black groups on either side. I thought I was in VERY good shape at this point. Not game over, but definitely had a good advantage.

:b53: I think this is my first mistake. Not a game-loser by itself, but it does cede my previous ability to "drive" the game.

:b63: I think this may have been the game changing mistake. After this move, it was I struggling to survive. The prey became the predators!

Is this a fair assessment? Or were there other opportunities that I missed in this fight?



Attachments:
2018-05-22 L OGS 5k.sgf [2.4 KiB]
Downloaded 643 times
Author:  EdLee [ Tue May 22, 2018 2:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi BG,
Author:  Shenoute [ Tue May 22, 2018 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where did I go wrong?? Review Request
Hi Blindgroup,

My two cents:
:b31: maybe leaves some potential for white to cut black in two by playing at J17
:b33: not a fan since it makes white slightly stronger which weakens b's group on the left side. Simply jumping or maybe pincering immediately at N17 seems better to me
:b43: seems too risky to me since the connection with J14 is a bit shaky. It feels like black is trying too hard here. I'd prefer a move that strengthens the J14 stones (J12, L15 or L14?)
:b53: and :b55: again not helping the center stones seems risky.
Author:  BlindGroup [ Tue May 22, 2018 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where did I go wrong?? Review Request
Shenoute wrote:
Hi Blindgroup,

My two cents:
:b31: maybe leaves some potential for white to cut black in two by playing at J17
:b33: not a fan since it makes white slightly stronger which weakens b's group on the left side. Simply jumping or maybe pincering immediately at N17 seems better to me
:b43: seems too risky to me since the connection with J14 is a bit shaky. It feels like black is trying too hard here. I'd prefer a move that strengthens the J14 stones (J12, L15 or L14?)
:b53: and :b55: again not helping the center stones seems risky.


Thank you! I follow all of your comments, except the first. I considered this in the game and just went back and played out a few variations. Are you saying that white could immediately cut with J17? Or that with the jump, J17 almost works creating a weakness that might be exploited later? If it can be cut immediately, would you mind showing me how that works?

And on :b33: why N17 rather than O17?
Author:  Shenoute [ Tue May 22, 2018 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where did I go wrong?? Review Request
BlindGroup wrote:
Or that with the jump, J17 almost works creating a weakness that might be exploited later?

This. I don't think white four stones have enough liberties for w to play j17 immediately but as soon as they gain some (G13 might be enough to do the trick) it may burden black and prevent him from attacking very severely. But I admit I haven't looked precisely if it really is of any importance in this precise position.

BlindGroup wrote:
And on :b33: why N17 rather than O17?

Both look good to me :-) I prefer N17 because it puts more pressure on white but on the other hand, since it is closer, it may enable white to play things like O16 to reinforce himself...
Author:  dfan [ Tue May 22, 2018 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where did I go wrong?? Review Request
I don't know what the best move is for :b63:, but it is hard for me to imagine how J11 could possibly be better than J10 (which is my blitz choice).
Author:  ez4u [ Tue May 22, 2018 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where did I go wrong?? Review Request
BlindGroup wrote:
Shenoute wrote:
Hi Blindgroup,

My two cents:
:b31: maybe leaves some potential for white to cut black in two by playing at J17
:b33: not a fan since it makes white slightly stronger which weakens b's group on the left side. Simply jumping or maybe pincering immediately at N17 seems better to me
:b43: seems too risky to me since the connection with J14 is a bit shaky. It feels like black is trying too hard here. I'd prefer a move that strengthens the J14 stones (J12, L15 or L14?)
:b53: and :b55: again not helping the center stones seems risky.


Thank you! I follow all of your comments, except the first. I considered this in the game and just went back and played out a few variations. Are you saying that white could immediately cut with J17? Or that with the jump, J17 almost works creating a weakness that might be exploited later? If it can be cut immediately, would you mind showing me how that works?

...

Are you familiar with the cutting play at :w1: below and its standard follow-up? Note the role of the marked white stone in the position combined with :w1: and :w5:. This shape comes up quite often in running fights. It is a standard way to stop a group of stones from escaping. So :w30: in the game may be an overplay but definitely had an idea behind it (or maybe not since White did not go through with it when the chance arose). :-) At this point White is too weak to go through with this. Black simply connects at 7 instead of playing 6. If White captures at "a", Black captures the five white stones in the center of this mess due to their shortage of liberties, as Shenoute noted.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc :b8: @ :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X 6 a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O 2 1 4 W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O 3 X 5 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Move ahead to :b41: and the position has become dangerous for Black. Now Black is in real trouble if White plays 42 at :w1: below. Here Black cannot cut at "a" because White can capture with "b"-"d" (note that White "e" is sente, threatening to capture the top with "f").
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc :b8: @ :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X 6 . f . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O 2 1 4 O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O 3 X 5 e . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . . b X a 7 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O X c X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . . d . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So what to do after :w30:? I think that playing the kick at :b1: below followed by the jump is in keeping with what you were trying for in the game. Note that the kick does two things: 1. protects against the cut that we just looked at and 2. makes White heavy on both sides before jumping out in a splitting attack. Black could also simply play something like diagonal move at "a" instead of :b1: to protect against the cut.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . . 1 O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O . X , 2 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  BlindGroup [ Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
Hi BG,


Ed, I realize that it's been a white since you posted these comments. I've been struggling with health issues and have only recently hit a period where I can concentrate well enough to go back through all of this, and I have a question. But if it has been too long, feel free to ignore.

Move 13-14: I looked up the joseki you showed me, but I'm having a hard time understanding why this is an even result. If I understand correctly, black even needs another move to secure the seemingly weak white stone. Does black have a follow on top or in the corner that compensates?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



And thanks again for such a thorough review! I think I understand the other points you made. Hopefully, some of them will stick ;-)
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:33 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi BG,

Sorry to hear that; hope things are improving for you.

I still don't have any super human bots,
so it would be very helpful if you double check with one. :)

The tiger's mouth variation reduces 1 liberty of :w8: ,
compared to the game move :b13: . I don't know either
the local or global evaluation. ( Bots useful for this. )
I was only pointing out the liberties of :w8: .

( Also useful to find out: the bot's winrate for :b9: pincer, vs. other options. )
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where did I go wrong?? Review Request
The concept of topping the tree is important for running fights. Use a capping play to get in your opponent's way.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where did I go wrong?? Review Request
BG, hope you are feeling better. Glad to see you back.


I think that the game went wrong by giving inadequate respect to white's overplay at L17. While almost certainly a bad move, it does have some virtues: it indirectly threatens black's H18/J16 keima. Ignoring that by making a one-space jump to J14 almost turns it onto a good move.

My first rule for running fights is to always stay connected. ( Anything less betrays the idea of running, right? )

I like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Position at move 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . . . O . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O . X , . C . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It maintains a solid connection, even if your opponent knows about tesujis as well as Ez4u. It threatens both groups, with possible continuations at the circled points.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/