Fllecha wrote:
Hi all.
I am struggling about grasping the ideas behind this two related topic about 4-4 point joseki. I'm 4k btw.
...
Second question. The famous 3-3 invasion.
With LeelaZero help we play this fuseki
The bots says that here black is perfectly placed and is around 56% winning chances. Since black is around 43% on the first move that means that black having "sente" in the final position (and having few points on the corner) this is more than sufficient for having a +13% improvement even if white has nice territory at the top and komi. It seems to me that white position at the top is big and hardly invadable. Ok M17 is an invasion possibility but after the usual joseki white is very thick I think and how to reduce that? And in the top left under the wall that is pure 20 points territory.... it seems to me too big.
Here what is black's usual plan against that position on the top left? How Black usually attacks the wall that white build after he faces the 3-3 invasion? Can you please show me some plans against the wall of the 3-3 invasion or here to study it?
Thanks.
I am struggling about grasping the ideas behind this two related topic about 4-4 point joseki. I'm 4k btw.
...
Second question. The famous 3-3 invasion.
With LeelaZero help we play this fuseki
The bots says that here black is perfectly placed and is around 56% winning chances. Since black is around 43% on the first move that means that black having "sente" in the final position (and having few points on the corner) this is more than sufficient for having a +13% improvement even if white has nice territory at the top and komi. It seems to me that white position at the top is big and hardly invadable. Ok M17 is an invasion possibility but after the usual joseki white is very thick I think and how to reduce that? And in the top left under the wall that is pure 20 points territory.... it seems to me too big.
Here what is black's usual plan against that position on the top left? How Black usually attacks the wall that white build after he faces the 3-3 invasion? Can you please show me some plans against the wall of the 3-3 invasion or here to study it?
Thanks.
If you used LZ to create this fuseki, you should have some feeling already for where your thinking is going wrong. White should continue extending at
below instead of playing "a" in your example. LZ considers that "a" loses 6% versus 3 and the game is instantly equal when Black grabs the key point with a play at 3. In old-school terms as well, "a" is too close to White's wall and it allows Black to "hane at the head of three stones". At 4k the rules to live by include: * "Always allow your opponent to push from behind on the second line!"
* "Don't tenuki and allow your opponent to hane at the head of either your two stones (
below) or your three stones ( )."By the time you get to 4d you will not have found many exceptions to these rules!
By the end of the example LZ considers
below a -8% play. It is way too close to the wall (now something like seven stones tall but with lots of defects. LZ considers that White should just play away to "a" in the bottom right for example with a roughly equal game. does pop up frequently in LZ analyses - as a possible response to Black "b". LZ will often sacrifice the marked White stones as apparently it does not consider the effort to fix up the defects worth it!