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| stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2348 |
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| Author: | 1986 [ Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:57 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO | ||
this is my first time posting a game for review i hope i do it right I'm black playing MFOG 12 Kyu A.I. what am i doing wrong? What can i do to improve my Game? [sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=534/[sgf-full] http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/downlo ... php?id=534 hhmmm for some reason i cant get the game to show up with the link but i will figure it out just bear with me im a noob
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
You need to change the second [sgf-full]to a [/sgf-full]. Like this: |
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| Author: | 1986 [ Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
thank you |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
Black 65 really made me wince. Looking back, how do you think you should have played? |
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| Author: | topazg [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
@emeraldemon |
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| Author: | Mike Novack [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
Defines "works", Topgaz. Don't stop with showing us white 7 but try continuing a bit more. Where does black play 8? How can white respond to that? What is the price white would pay to cut off and capture that black stone? PS -- I'm new to this so haven't a clue to diagram the next moves/variations PSS --- If you hadn't been told white was a 'bot, would you have known "not a human player"? |
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| Author: | topazg [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
Continuation: Variations that don't work: White has to suck up the weakness of his lower right group. The difficulty started in my opinion with the move 10 approach and after Black takes K5 White needs to do something really urgently. As it is, the group on the right has some capability to make eyeshape, and some good sabaki opportunities, but on the basis of having already reached  in emeraldemon's diagram, the cut is huge (15-20 points), and any damage to the right side White stones is already sort of done  Human vs Bot: The opening doesn't look so good for White to me. A few slow 3rd line moves without great development potential, and what feels like a rather dubious approach in the lower right for move  .  +  seems like an inconsistent and small exchange for White to make. seems shaky without central / left potential, and should be an extend to be consistent with . Now Black can cultivate a good right hand side and it is hard for White to develop on as large a scale. ->  is a bad exchange for White.That said, I would easily believe White is a human, even knowing it wasn't. There's none of the crazy middle mega-moyo stuff that some MC bots play (Fuego, I'm looking at you), and many of the ideas it tries to pull off or relatively standard fare. I don't know, does that help ? |
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| Author: | Li Kao [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
Could get ugly for white. It looks to me that then either the three stones at the bottom or the white group on the right dies. But I don't know who decides which one dies. |
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| Author: | topazg [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
| Author: | emeraldemon [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
I guess my point was that L7 saved the black stones and kept pressure on white, but the move in the game gave up the whole group and white got a huge side... I'm not really sure the best continuation, but is there a better move than L7 in that position? |
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| Author: | topazg [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
emeraldemon wrote: I guess my point was that L7 saved the black stones and kept pressure on white, but the move in the game gave up the whole group and white got a huge side... I'm not really sure the best continuation, but is there a better move than L7 in that position? Wow, I did derail it didn't I. Yeah, I 100% agree with L7 
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| Author: | 1986 [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
ok i see what i did wrong i should have not just patched the cut and looked into attacking the weak group to the bottom left starting with L7 its amazing how one move can weigh so much in a game |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
Some scattered but straightforward ideas. 49: This move connects two groups that are strong and alive, leaving the group that  has threatened to cut off. Connecting two living groups is not worthwhile unless it accomplishes some other important goal. 79: I believe you should make a bamboo joint by playing at H13. If White plays atari at %G13, I believe he can cut off your four stones, or rescue his three captured stones. 101: This move is not necessary. If white captures, you can simply play at D12 (E11 might be better, but D12 is simple and safe). 105: S3 works better to keep white from getting those few points in the corner. 131: Pull back at B15--it gives you the first line hane and connect, which is a very big endgame move. |
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| Author: | Mike Novack [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
topazg wrote: That said, I would easily believe White is a human, even knowing it wasn't. There's none of the crazy middle mega-moyo stuff that some MC bots play (Fuego, I'm looking at you), and many of the ideas it tries to pull off or relatively standard fare. Why should you expect it to make moves like an MC 'bot? At the setting 12 kyu level MFOG is using a straight "go knowledge" AI. Only the top level of update 12.020 uses Monte Carlo and only the two top levels of the just released 12.021. And as far as I know MFOG isn't a "straight" Monte Carlo algorithm but uses some "go knowledge" engine to develope a set of plausible moves; the lower levels then use an AI evaluator to pick the best of the lot and the top level(s) use Monte Carlo for that. As for it making weak moves in this game, it was set to simluate 12 kyu. Do not judge MFOG's potential by this example! The new 12.021 is supposed to be 1 dan on a "standard machine" |
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| Author: | 1986 [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
i sure am glad i found this site that review hit it right on the dot i added the variations and comments to the sgf via smartgo and i can see it clearly now... as far as computer play i like MFOG when there nothing else to do i can play a game with the different levels of A I and handicap and play a challenging fun game so there is a time and place for everything 
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| Author: | 1986 [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
its been a while since i played MFOG i decided to do a rematch after i got offline yesterday, i pretty happy i won i never beat this level yet until last night, but i have been working hard at my go doing tsumego, online games, and elementary books i felt stronger since i played last and i expected to win this game. i should have pushed harder i wanted to win by more points but i didn't see any profitable attacks so i played it cool. also in the middle game i didn't play aggressive enough so there were no good invasions or cutting opportunities. well im not stuck anymore so thats good news  now i want to make it resign next time! 
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| Author: | Mike Novack [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
I am going to suggest something (in my opinion how to best use a program like this) a) Use the computer program weakened to about your own strength to play against even only as a substitute for not having a human opponent available. Otherwise play against humans when playing even. b) To maximize learning set the computer program to be several stones stronger than you and take the appropriate handicap. This will force you to learn to use strones already on the board, maintain connectivity, make territory by attacking, etc. and when you make a mistake the computer will likely spot it and punish you. Used this way the computer won't be playing as differently than a human would as in "a" so less likely for you to learn bad habits. c) As soon as you get strong enough you will want to be playing MFOG when it using "Monte Carlo". If you have updated to MFOG 12.021 the top two levels (1 dan and 3 kyu) are doing that so you are getting close. You could try the 3 kyu setting,take 9 stones, and see what happens. |
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| Author: | Li Kao [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
Does ManyFaces have some kind of dynamic komi? Because from what I heard handicap doesn't work well with monte carlo AIs. |
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| Author: | Numsgil [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
Li Kao wrote: Does ManyFaces have some kind of dynamic komi? Because from what I heard handicap doesn't work well with monte carlo AIs. Er, that's weird if that's true. Unless you mean for hybrid monte-carlo where it can't use an opening move dictionary? |
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| Author: | Mike Novack [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: stuck at 13 kyu Many faces of GO |
Not sure what is being said. a) I am not at all sure how Fotland has managed to get two levels of play where the selection algorithm is a Monte Carlo tree search. But I can think of a couple possibilities beyond "dynamic komi". b) MFOG uses an AI engine to generate a plausible move set and then (if at a level using Monet Carlo) using Monte Carlo tree search to select the best of the lot. So yes I can (and probably does) use fuseki data bases, etc. Very much "hybrid" with the intent that the play be more human like. |
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, but ...
in emeraldemon's original