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A game with some questions
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Author:  Koroviev [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  A game with some questions


Here's a recent game I lost (I'm white). I'd welcome any general advice, but also have a couple of questions about specific moves.

10: After this move by black, was I right to tenuki, or is my group too weak?
15: Is this a mistake? Seemed more aggressive than just playing the nobi. :rambo:
21: I wanted to enclose white rather than just defend at R10, not sure if this was a wise plan.
79: I played the hane here. My intention was to pressure black, rather than passively crawling along to make territory. It seemed that black responded submissively, and got 'bent back.' However, the result seems to be a huge top territory for black. What was wrong with my play here?
135: I think I handled this badly. Any comments?
201: I was pretty pleased with this invasion, though I suspect black could have killed with optimal play. Any general comments on it?

I've been through the game and identified lots of obvious silly tactical blunders, but any guidance on general strategy would be appreciated.

In general, I've been playing differently lately, after some reviews criticised my passive play (just grabbing big points and never really attacking). But even when I can identify a weak group, I'm not always sure how to go about attacking it. :scratch:

As ever, I really appreciate people taking the time to have a look at my game. :tmbup:
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A game with some questions
10/11: Yes, you were correct to tenuki. Or at least, you are correct that your group is strong enough such that it does not need defending.
Indeed, your group could be said to be too strong. If you want to protect R7, your move at R8 does it. But so does R9 - with a ladder. The mainline joseki is actually even one space more to R10. ( Embedded in R10, there is a concept that will haunt you for the rest of your go-playing days, no matter how strong you become: the problem of good play vs over-play. White cannot kill the cutting stone outright. But nonetheless, it is bad play for black to cut. )

Anyway, back to the question of tenuki: Once you have an overly strong group, when presented with a target like the black kiema to O8, you could push at P7 and cut at O6.

15: This is joseki, though one that has fallen out of favor. I can't recall ever having seen a pro play it in this century. It looks thin if black pushes through at R15. I don't know if it is not seen because pros have judged it inferior, or if it is just a matter of fashion.
The important thing to note here is that he defended poorly, and you got more than you should have.

21: I like your idea of fighting here rather than submitting with a low play like R10. But there is a bigger issue than the fate of his Q10 stone. He has two walls forming, and if he joins them to create one big wall from north to south, it will be worth way more than the territory that you get on the right side.
I'd push through with O12 instead, for it is more solidly connected to your other stones. It separates his Q10 stone from its friends to the north. Then you have miai of P9 and P7/O6 to separate his Q10 stone from its friends to the south.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A game with some questions
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
But so does R9 - with a ladder. The mainline joseki is actually even one space more to R10. ( Embedded in R10, there is a concept that will haunt you for the rest of your go-playing days, no matter how strong you become: the problem of good play vs over-play. White cannot kill the cutting stone outright.)

???

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 O 8 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White can definitely kill the black stones if they cut, so what you said confuses me. By my understanding, the R10 stone is to give white a good solid base. Without it, a black pincer around R9 or R10 becomes quite severe.

Now, if white loses the liberty here, than with an R10 stone the black cut can no longer be killed:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Anyway, I think that R8 is a fine play instead of R10. For instance, check out this game by Lee Chang-ho and Yoda Norimoto back in 2006:



Attachments:
1DIy1P.sgf [1.17 KiB]
Downloaded 562 times
Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A game with some questions
A few comments: :)



Focus:

1) Neutralize your opponent's strong walls.

2) Who cares about a single stone?

As for the fights you asked about, you actually came out well, but you should have avoided them in the first place (objectively speaking). :)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A game with some questions
If I may butt in:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b8: is a slight improvement. :)

Joaz is too good a player even to consider :w3:. ;) After this sequence :w1: is clearly misplaced.

BTW, I once played :b2: against a pro. In the specific situation I intended it as a sacrifice. The pro played the atari at :w4: without hesitation. ;)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A game with some questions
Dusk Eagle wrote:
Anyway, I think that R8 is a fine play instead of R10. For instance, check out this game by Lee Chang-ho and Yoda Norimoto back in 2006:



What is the context? Black plays solidly to prepare for the fight in the center. :)
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A game with some questions
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 S S . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O T T . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmm. By removing those four stones, white does appear to have made a mistake in this sequence. If it wasn't for your improvement to :b8:, I wouldn't agree with you, but now I can see how white played suboptimally. Thanks.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A game with some questions
Dusk Eagle wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 S S . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O T T . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmm. By removing those four stones, white does appear to have made a mistake in this sequence. If it wasn't for your improvement to :b8:, I wouldn't agree with you, but now I can see how white played suboptimally. Thanks.


De nada. :)

BTW:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 S S . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O T T W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Since White will eventually have to capture the Black stones, you need to add another White stone for a proper tewari. :)
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A game with some questions
Dusk Eagle wrote:
???


Ooops! I never checked it out. :oops: I'm just used to seeing the atari underneath when black does cut.
Author:  Koroviev [ Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A game with some questions
Excellent, thanks for these comments everyone.
Author:  Magicwand [ Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A game with some questions
Koroviev wrote:
10: After this move by black, was I right to tenuki, or is my group too weak?


in my opinion there is nothing wrong with move 9. it is a matter of your preference.
and for your question you should not tenuki. you are weak enough to be attacked and lose the flow and lose.

it is rare that i disagree with bill but i disagree with bill's move on the bottom. it is too thin and will lose the thickness.
my choice will be 1 and miai a and b.

if you play maintaining thickness you will be rewarded later.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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