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11k vs 15k friendly match
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Author:  Mnemonic [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  11k vs 15k friendly match
Hi, all.

I've recently played a game against a good friend of mine, and thought I'd post it online for a review. We are friends at the local club and play a lot against each other, and although I'm a bit stronger our games are all pretty interesting.
To the game: It was going pretty well (or so I thought) until I forced black to kill 2 of my groups, at which point I resigned. :-?


Pointers for both sides would be appreciated. Thanks and thanks for maintaining an awesome forum. :mrgreen:



Attachments:
Zcartac_vs_Mnemonic.sgf [1.57 KiB]
Downloaded 539 times
Author:  SolarBear [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match
I'm not going to do a full review, but my general feeling is that Black's play is way too passive. Handicap stones are made to attack ! For instance, I'd play B14 around K16. B28 is another passive, territory-hugging response. Q12 would attack the stone, weakening the N16 group.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match
Here's a quick review. The bulk of it focus around Move 28, but there's some other ideas as well.
Author:  Mnemonic [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match
Thanks guys. I'll be sure to pass it along.
Author:  Magicwand [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match
group on top...is it really captured?
i think there is a way to save them.

if you save them you win.

i will let you figure it out.
Author:  Mnemonic [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match
Quote:
group on top...is it really captured?
i think there is a way to save them.

if you save them you win.


Yeah, that was my estimation too. I had a lot of aji to play with, so I left the group alone for a long time because I was confident in my ability to outread my opponent. Well, I guess that didn't happen.
I'll have another look at it. :study:

Just to know where I should start looking: Did I still have a chance after move 152, or was it too late?
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match
I'm pretty sure you can save it at the point you resigned.
Author:  Mnemonic [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match
hm, after some reading I think I found a ko sequence

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Ko?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 2 . 6 5 X 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . 1 X X X O X 8 9 0 . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 7 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]


But I still don't know what to do with this

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White dead?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . b a . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 O C 1 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]


a and b both die (as far as I can tell) and if White plays 2 then Black plays 1 and :ec: becomes a false eye.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match
In the first diagram, you're really close. You have an easy way to live at that point that doesn't involve ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . O X X X O X 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 1 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]

In the second diagram, I've given you the first move of the sequence. So, do you see how white can live now? This next move is key.

Hint:
Throw-in
Author:  topazg [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match
@Dusk Eagle:

The first alternative to Black playing in the top left fails for the same reason:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . a X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 3 O b 1 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]


a and b are miai, but how about this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . 2 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 8 7 O 0 1 X X X O X 4 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 3 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]


This still looks dead to me ... Throwin first doesn't seem to work either?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 3 2 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 4 2 X X X O X 7 6 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 5 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match
@topazg
D'oh, I'm wrong. I completely missed the connection at :b2:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . 1 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]

I guess I really should have noticed that. Oh well, I'll try to remember shapes like this for next time.

Anyway, it doesn't seem like white's alive at the end anymore. So now where is he?



Conclusion:I don't know where white is alive.


Attachments:
interesting.sgf [735 Bytes]
Downloaded 456 times
interesting.sgf [640 Bytes]
Downloaded 363 times
Author:  Mnemonic [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match
Well, I looked at it some more and couldn't figure it out, so opened your hide tags. Seem like the problem is well beyond my abilities. I only found a simplified Ko sequence by just looking at it. I had to do the rest with placing stones (which still got me nowhere).

But I guess it was still too early to resign, my opponents reading should be even worse than mine. I should have just tried it and hoped for a mistake. :-?
Author:  Magicwand [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match
topazg wrote:
@Dusk Eagle:

The first alternative to Black playing in the top left fails for the same reason:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . a X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 3 O b 1 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]


a and b are miai, but how about this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . 2 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 8 7 O 0 1 X X X O X 4 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 3 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]


This still looks dead to me ... Throwin first doesn't seem to work either?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 3 2 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 4 2 X X X O X 7 6 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 5 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]


yea..you are absolutely correct.
i really didnt look at it too seriously and missed it.

but at their level i think it has good chance of living.
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