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Author:

Koroviev [ Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:53 am ]

Post subject:

Fighting game

Hi all,

Here is a recent game played over the board, which quickly developed into a fun fighting game. There was no time limit and we both took our time over our moves.

I've put a few questions in the file, along with comments on what I was thinking at particular points (which I now notice are replete with typos, sorry).

As we are both weak players I'm sure there are many reading errors, but any particularly egregious ones, or strategic blunders, would be good to know.

Many thanks!

Attachments:

Fighting game 19 July 2011.sgf [2.02 KiB]
Downloaded 526 times

Author: Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:02 am ]

Post subject: Re: Fighting game

As a general rule, when you have a symetrical gap between two opposing walls, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . X O . . . . $$ . . . X O . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . X O . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]

...or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . X O . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . X O . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]

...or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . X O . . . . $$ . . . X O . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . X O . . . . $$ . . . X O . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]

...the first player to push through gains a substantial advantage.
The general pattern is like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . X O . . . . $$ . . . X O a . . . $$ . . . 3 1 2 . . . $$ . . . X O b . . . $$ . . . X O . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]

...and although the attacker appears to have lost sente, there are two cutting points, at 'a' and 'b'. Usually the defender must protect one of them, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . X O . . . . $$ . . . X O 4 . . . $$ . . . 3 1 2 . . . $$ . . . X O b . . . $$ . . . X O . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]

...which leaves the attacker still with sente, AND the net profit of a weak point at 'b'.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fighting game
7: Although the 3-3 is joseki, it feels like the wrong one here. Four of his five stones are high, and all of yours are low. I'd go for the most common variation ( Over 60% according to DailyJoseki ) at P14 which gives you some competing influence. He probably answers with O16, then you play Q9, and the result looks better for you than the game, IMHO. 10: Yes, he makes a mistake here. The only move for black is Q15. 11: As noted in my previous post, you should exploit his mistake by playing Q15 yourself. 15: You can't tenuki. F3 is light, and does not require help. The upper left is still too unstable. You can still play Q15, although it is not as good as it was. R13 is a possible defensive move. 17: This seems a premature commitment to a particular plan, for he can play Q5 himself. 20: His invasion feels just a tad premature, for if he were to play elsewhere, you can't secure the whole side with one move, and he will still be able to invade. ( There is a proverb that says invade at the last opportunity, just before your opponent can prevent the invasion. ) He should take a big move like K17, or an urgent one like R15, then invade later. 21: This is way too ambitious. The cap has a very poor relationship with its neighbors at Q5 and H4. Better would be the solid move at K3, securing territory for yourself and preventing his use of the lower side for eyes, thus virtually ensuring that he will have to run to live. 24: A really weak keima. 25: Nice play by white - the better of the two possible cuts. 35: This stone has an iffy future. There is aji at R13, but it is bad aji for you. He can play R13 in sente. Your upper right group is not strong enough to force a connection along the right side. And even if it were, letting him gain a wall along the Q file is worth more to him than the right side territory is to you. If you want to harrass his R7 stone, Q9 or O7 looks better.

Author:	daniel_the_smith [ Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fighting game
10: Yes. (it was painful to watch that stay on the board for dozens of moves.) 37: I think you misjudged who is attacking whom. 35 was perhaps not so good, as Joaz said. You should be helping your critically weak stone, not making him stronger right next to it. You can play this in a handicap game, where every white stone is automatically 3x stronger than it looks. But not in an even game. 43: You can't cut here; it doesn't work. It's very grim for your two stones. 56: Terrible. Probably game losing. Black makes too many holes for you to go through. He should have defended one side strongly. If his stones get out, you have to worry about a weak group and also him making a capturing race with his stones on the bottom and yours in the middle. Edit: reading this, it came off more grumpy than I meant. Edited.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fighting game
61: When you push through at N11, he can block, and you have to cut at M10 to make the push effective. Instead, you can push through at N13 where he is too thin to effectively resist. 63: N13 still hurts him. 69: Finally someone gets the big double sente. 91: As you note in your comment about his next move, he might be able to win the capturing race. Have you counted the size of that race? And if you win it, you will be connected at N14, so you will still be able to attack his upper side later. You must play S11. 93: Start with moves that improve the health of your weak group, not your strong one. Your upper right corner is finally strong enough to survive whatever he can throw at it. But your right side stones are very weak. Again, S11 is best

Author:	Tryss [ Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fighting game
Quote: 93: Start with moves that improve the health of your weak group, not your strong one. Your upper right corner is finally strong enough to survive whatever he can throw at it. But your right side stones are very weak. Again, S11 is best S11 is better, but not enough: S11, P11, O10, Q10, Q9 and black R9 capture white in a ladder Something like R9 can probably save the white group

Author:	ez4u [ Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fighting game
63 is an overplay. White is misreading the right side. Any time after 70 (even a little before but who's really counting ) Black can capture four White stones with P11. If White connects, Black plays Q10 and just keeps on playing atari after that. This is a basic tesuji you can learn from studying. Good fighting spirit though!

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fighting game
Tryss wrote: Quote: 93: Start with moves that improve the health of your weak group, not your strong one. Your upper right corner is finally strong enough to survive whatever he can throw at it. But your right side stones are very weak. Again, S11 is best S11 is better, but not enough: S11, P11, O10, Q10, Q9 and black R9 capture white in a ladder Something like R9 can probably save the white group @Tryss: Thanks for catching this. @OP: Sorry about the bad advice. Note that the correct move of R9 still follows the principle of strengthening your weak group, using it to drive your victim toward your strong group.

Author:	Koroviev [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fighting game
I posted this game for review then forgot all about it - discovered these helpful comments now, many thanks for all the help!

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