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Strange reply to 3-4 point low approach
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5304		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Oripy [ Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Strange reply to 3-4 point low approach
Hi everyone,

It's my first post on this forum.

Yesterday I ran into a strange answer to a basic move and didn't know how to react. In the end I felt that I missed an opportunity.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 a . . . .
$$ | . . . b 2 . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


3 isn't Joseki, I answered at a but maybe should I have played at b ? An other solution ?

Thank you for your answers.

PS: I'm about 17k so I'm not confident with Joseki, I don't know how to study them (and I don't think I should study them at my level, should I ?).
Author:  Shaddy [ Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Strange reply to 3-4 point low approach
3 is really small, you can just kind of pretend your opponent passed and it should be ok.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Strange reply to 3-4 point low approach
Welcome to the forums.

The 'It is not joseki, therefore I do not know how to handle it' mindset can get you into trouble when your opponent plays non-book moves.

You will do better trying to understand joseki. In this particular instance, upon seeing :w3:, I would ask myself what is the meaning of each stone played. :w1: is an attempt to take territory, biased more toward the side than the top. :b2: is an attempt to share the corner and maybe have something on the top side. ( You knew this already, right? :razz: )

:w3: is a single-minded attempt to secure the corner. It is successful. So, what is left? The sides, of course, and the center. So, you play :b4:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 a . . . .
$$ | . . . b 2 . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I'd play 4 with no problems if I had the favorable ladder going southeast like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 7 2 . . . .
$$ | . . 1 6 5 8 . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I might play more cautiously otherwise, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I'd have to read out the continuations to say for sure.

BTW, this is all assuming that something should be played in the corner. If there is an open corner elsewhere, I'd regard :w3: as so passive that I could tenuki.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Strange reply to 3-4 point low approach
Oripy wrote:
Hi everyone,

It's my first post on this forum.

Yesterday I ran into a strange answer to a basic move and didn't know how to react. In the end I felt that I missed an opportunity.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 a . . . .
$$ | . . . b 2 . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


3 isn't Joseki, I answered at a but maybe should I have played at b ? An other solution ?

Thank you for your answers.

PS: I'm about 17k so I'm not confident with Joseki, I don't know how to study them (and I don't think I should study them at my level, should I ?).


To answer your last question first, I would not worry about joseki until you are 5 kyu, or even dan level. (OC, you will learn joseki, but just picking them up is fine. :))

Your instinct to play at "a" is good. :) "b" is usually terrible. It strengthens White and gains Black next to nothing, as a rule.

As others have pointed out, you have gotten a passive response, so you can play somewhere else. Many joseki errors punish themselves. ;)

Where to play depends on the rest of the board, but I might try something like this, if I continued in this region.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . 4 . .
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Since :b2: got a passive response, I am willing to throw it away. No need to play close to it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


The one space jump is also an interesting idea.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 2 . . . a . . .
$$ | . . 1 , 6 . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


As is your block. :) :b8: could also extend to "a".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 5 6 . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . 4 7 9 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I would be wary of the press, :b4:. After :w9: :w3: does not look bad. It secures the corner while restricting the chances of :b2: and :b6: to make eye shape.
Author:  Uberdude [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Strange reply to 3-4 point low approach
Although this move is rather strange and slow on an empty board (thought it wouldn't surprise me it Kitani played it!), it can be good if there's something interesting going on. For example in the following mini-chinese opening:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Mini-Chinese part 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 0 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm11 Mini-Chinese part 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . 6 a . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The common-sense move (and indeed the first one played in GoGoD) for black is to kick to prevent white getting eyes in the corner (if white extends he is heavy and is attacked severely) but then white can make fairly decent shape with the 2nd line hane and atari:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm17 Kick, white builds shape easily
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . 6 . O 1 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . 4 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So pros have also tried the footsweep. This means white doesn't get those useful forcing moves on the corner as above, but instead does have a big weakness at a to aim at. As black hasn't taken a liberty from the white stone it is easier for white to tenuki, for example to run away lightly to b. A nice tactic for white is to play hane at d after b-c which might seem dangerous as it allows black to cut at e, but white then plays at a and it is hard for black to stop white getting something. This variation has been researched recently (since 2008) by pros and is covered in Kim Sung Rae's 21st Century Openings Volume 3.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm17 Footsweep, making it harder for white to make shape
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X c d . O . a . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . b e . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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