I'll admit I play on DGS pretty casually, it's coffee-break go for me. But I'm trying to take the games seriously enough that I still learn from them, and part of that is reviewing them afterwards. I've put a few thoughts in the sgf, but any advice or questions would be very helpful.

Some comments about the opening. Take them with a grain of salt, though. I'm not particularly good at this!

W10 - Black 9 was a diagonal contact move. That low slide isn't a very strong response. It isn't endangering black's stone's in any way and it isn't giving you an optimal base. I think the better passive response would've been R9 or even R10 if you can play lightly around it.

A more aggressive response would've been a probe at R4, perhaps prompting a more direct fight where you could treat the R4 stone lightly while using it as leverage to play moves to strengthen the R6 group.

The most direct move would be to play Q6 to get outside. Then if Black plays P6 you can extend to R9 or Q9 without much trouble.

W14 - The black stone at B8 is weak. Playing contact against it just makes it strong, and now Black gets a strong group in the corner and a strong group on the side facing his hoshi stone while your group runs into the center. This is a disaster. Just play W18 and skip the awful exchange of W14, B15, W16, B17 - or at least consider using W16 to cross-cut.

W30 - This seems misguided. On the one hand, it looks greedy / jealous of black's potential territory. On the other hand, this is nowhere near the largest point on the board (top and left are much bigger). Neither B group is weak in that area. A reduction would probably have been more advantageous, hopefully giving you a wall to work with and sente to go back and grab one of those big points to the left.

W58 - This move creates the shape problem of W60 (empty triangle). If you need to stop B from connecting then consider L18 (ladders against the cut at M16 look good for you). Instead you wind up with an empty triangle in Gote on W60, leading to black living easily on the top. Imagine White - L18, Black - K18, White - H17. Now you've got your corner, part of the side, and black is one the run. Pick a side where you want your profit and keep attacking his running group! Can threaten to take a chunk of the center or raise a big moyo in the lower left quadrant with that kind of a fight.

Like I said, take any of these with a grain of salt. There may be some incredibly obvious joseki mistake I overlooked, something I read out totally wrong, or just slack play on my part - but I hope at least the questions raised may be of some use to you.

- Marty Lund

W10 at S4 is critizised in the review, but it is a standard move in the kobayashi fuseki, isn't it?

_________________
Stay out of my territory! (W. White, aka Heisenberg)

w10 at s4 is an excellent move, almost the only move. Looking at the suggested alternatives:

The block is rather heavy as black then blocks the corner, white has to extend or else suffer a hugely painful hane at head of 2 stones, and then black gets to make a pincer which makes the white wall look weak rather than thick, and combines nicely with the 4-4 above.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm10 Heavy block
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The peep is rather crazy as you just get a weak shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm10 Crazy peep
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The light extension looks more reasonable. Lee Chang Ho has played this move (with the usual k4 Kobayashi). It simplifies the game and makes it a yose contest, his speciality. Black gets a big corner though so it's not very common.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm10 Light extension
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thanks everyone. Looking at it again I feel like the result up to may actually be even, or close to even. Is that true?

True enough - grain of salt and all that.

Still, it isn't exactly Kobayashi. It feels to me like the shift in the position of the middle stone off the star point gave black a more solid position on the bottom right when the dust settles from this exchange.



Why not just accept that the hane might happen and extend down the side?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm10 Block + Extension
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If black takes the hane can White get away with approacing the top right and either taking a fight or an extension that shores up his right side?



I tend to find most peeps invite shapes like that if the opponent blocks directly. I guess I just found the possibility of connecting on the second line more interesting than it really is.



Interesting. I think my biggest worry with that would be how low and flat white is there. This early in the game black could get a lot of influence pressing white down unless White did something risky like played the first extension up on the 4th line instead.

As far as the big corner goes, though, it looks like in this case black walked away with a pretty significant corner and buttoned up a huge chuck of the lower side and still got strength on the right side facing the upper right corner. That's why it feels like White walked away with the short end of the exchange in ths particular game. I'm probably just not appreciating how much influence white is exerting with his shape closer to the center.

Were there any better options for White after the shoulder-hit, slide, pincer exchange made in this game?

- Marty Lund

Maybe 20 is a little bit too kind, and one space below would be better to push black lower, though it does leave a bit of a weakness. But it's not so bad that I didn't do it too : http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=275221. It's even enough I think. I certainly understand the feelings of discomfort that black got to play on both sides, and white's group isn't making many points and although it is safe enough for now it's not totally alive yet. White has settled in sente in black's area, with some things to do to black in the future. Move 20 though I think could be wrong.

Taking a look at pro games:

This has the more usual Kobayashi opening k4. How much does this change things? I think if anything it makes white happier to give black the territory in the lower right corner (of emeraldemon's game) and the big gap between f3 and l4 makes it easier to invade there and separate f3 (with k4 shape the h3 invasion black can connect with attach on top, now he can't). There's also an approach and pincer in the lower right but I don't think that has much impact.



My understanding of this game is white makes the e11 turn and pushes to strengthen his group in sente (of course it also gives black a lot) because afterwards he can stop black making too much territory with the 3-3 invasion. Thus the 4-4 in that corner is very relevant.



Another game, this time white just makes those pushes without making an exchange against black's corner/side first. White then defends at b12. This helps secure his group and seems to make miai of the 3-3 invasion and some move on top top, maybe g16? Black defends the top with f15 and then white invades at 3-3. To be honest I'm not clear what, and how effective, white's move on the top side would be if black didn't defend and would be very tempted to e3 to defend against the 3-3. If white invades the top at g16 it seems black can come out with f15 and the f11 cut could come in useful. But obviously those pushes white made in sente help white in this fight. In emeraldemon's game the black stone being one closer does make this fight harder for white so this strategy might not be so effective, but it's probably still playable.

Because if you just extend, black will probably block at 11 anyway, and then you can extend/approach as suggested. The 10 for 13 exchange helps black more than white (black 13 helps develop the lower side, as well as making the 2 white stones have awful shape). Though it's not quite so simple as sometimes instead of block at 11 black does push on top at 10 first, white extends, and then black blocks the corner. Still, unless you are going to play gote to fix the awful shape with the 2nd line hane connect, it's not worth making 1 light stone turn into 2 heavy stones like that.

Thank you for posting that game example with Zhou Junxun - it really helped me to see the potential of this position to develop for White.

Do you think the difference in not playing the real Kobayashi and the higher play of W18 might come up around move 54 in the pro game? I didn't see how white's position in the reviewed game could allow a similar push-and-cut sequence against black.

Do you think Black could've made a more advantageous choice of joseki after the approach at W20? It seems like attach-and-extend or something could've work better than what played out.

- Marty Lund