A game I couldn't read

Alguien · #1

Most of my games follow the same pattern:
- I play normal corners and approaches until I attack a weak group.
- My opponent refuses to just defend and give me the big influence.
- I kill him and win or don't and struggle to an uncertain end.

This game, however, wasn't like that. I made some bad choices and ended up with a large framework and just one corner. Very soon I read the game as lost but didn't know what to do with that other than keep playing.

Lamp · #2

You're obviously a bit stronger than me, but here's some of my comments, if for no other reason than to see for my own curiosity if they match up with other peoples' comments.

6 - How about R10? It's the ideal extension from black's corner enclosure, as well as being in the primary direction. Usually in the opening moves like this are the biggest plays on the board. If black plays P4 next you're going to get pressed down, all while black building a huge moyo on the right side.

17 - I think black should have played R10. This seems like a very slow move.

24 - D10 looks good as well.

26 - I think I would have preferred a low pincer, like K3. It secures territory with the left, and connects your right and left groups. See: K3 L4 K4 L5 N6

56 - Feels like playing in the wrong place. There's no territory for you there, and if black pushes out it's still open enough to invade. On the other hand, you have lots of invasion points in your own territory which you could defend. For example, G17, C13, or C17. O10 just forces him to close his space up, which is harmful for your attempt to reduce it later. For example, you might be able to play something like P13 or P14 right now, but I'm not so sure after O10.

58 - You're going after center influence, but you've got very little in the way of settled territory. Something like C17, C13, C17 might work better. C2 is another possibility, because if black pushes out with E2 it's very likely he'll connect to J4.

80 - How about B11? It secures your edge, and forces him to go into your sphere of influence. It's unlikely he'll survive at all, but if he does manage to get out into the center, you could push him along with moves like white F11, white H11, and J11, and once he's escaped far enough, profit with a move like H8. In reality what's more likely to happen is you'll just kill him, and get thick around D13 in the process, and also strengthen your lower-left moyo.

84 - C9 seems like the obvious move. Am I missing something? I'm not sure why black didn't push out here with C9. If D4 then D9 E9 C8 C7 D7 E8 B7 C6 B6

88 - A11 kills.

Alguien · #3

Lamp wrote:

6 - How about R10? It's the ideal extension from black's corner enclosure, as well as being in the primary direction. Usually in the opening moves like this are the biggest plays on the board. If black plays P4 next you're going to get pressed down, all while black building a huge moyo on the right side.

I really don't like b having two shimari. I did see the problem with P4 next and maybe R10 is the correct answer, but I'm not sure.

Lamp wrote:

17 - I think black should have played R10. This seems like a very slow move.

I like 17. It stops W from enclosing the corner and helps the possible extension from teh top shimari.

Lamp wrote:

24 - D10 looks good as well.

I don't do well on big moyo games. I didn't want to divide the board in two.

Lamp wrote:

26 - I think I would have preferred a low pincer, like K3. It secures territory with the left, and connects your right and left groups. See: K3 L4 K4 L5 N6

I didn't want my group being surrounded.

Lamp wrote:

56 - Feels like playing in the wrong place. There's no territory for you there, and if black pushes out it's still open enough to invade. On the other hand, you have lots of invasion points in your own territory which you could defend. For example, G17, C13, or C17. O10 just forces him to close his space up, which is harmful for your attempt to reduce it later. For example, you might be able to play something like P13 or P14 right now, but I'm not so sure after O10.

It's sente and it would be sente for B. I preferred to play it and avoid him turning around my group and heightening the wall towards his shimari.

Lamp wrote:

58 - You're going after center influence, but you've got very little in the way of settled territory. Something like C17, C13, C17 might work better. C2 is another possibility, because if black pushes out with E2 it's very likely he'll connect to J4.

Again, sente. I do like to keep it.

You're comparing sente moves to gote.

Lamp wrote:

80 - How about B11? It secures your edge, and forces him to go into your sphere of influence. It's unlikely he'll survive at all, but if he does manage to get out into the center, you could push him along with moves like white F11, white H11, and J11, and once he's escaped far enough, profit with a move like H8. In reality what's more likely to happen is you'll just kill him, and get thick around D13 in the process, and also strengthen your lower-left moyo.

B11 looks good. I think it would have worked well.

Lamp wrote:

84 - C9 seems like the obvious move. Am I missing something? I'm not sure why black didn't push out here with C9. If D4 then D9 E9 C8 C7 D7 E8 B7 C6 B6

You probably didn't miss anything. I just suck at killing invasions.

Lamp wrote:

88 - A11 kills.

A15 connects.

Lamp wrote:

diagram

I don't read b as you do. What if b goes directly to C12 and C9 instead of connecting?

skydyr · #4

Move 16: White can descend in sente to o2 before laddering the stone. Aside from that, white's position isn't collapsing, so you're doing fine. Black would probably panic if you took the connection at p3 instead of p5 (as when the ladder works for black) because that's where most of the complications lie.

Move 23: This looks a bit ambitious. My first thought is just a reducing move against the shimari, because the inside is still so open. K16 isn't a bad idea though... black there would be quite large.

Move 26: This move looks playable, but by playing high, white is saying that black can take some territory in exchange for getting a nice big wall for white.

Move 28: This is gote and contrary to the spirit of the previous move. After move 35, black has strong positions on both sides of white, so even if white lives, that group may not be the most influential.

Move 58: This is a reducing move, which is a fine idea. White could also play the shoulder hit a line higher.

Move 62: This white group is near a lot of black strength, so it probably won't make much territory. Closing the corner here, perhaps with a keima along the top side, is very big.

Move 82: Keeping this invasion small in exchange for getting sente and patching up weak spots seems okay to me.

Alguien · #5

skydyr wrote:

Move 28: This is gote and contrary to the spirit of the previous move. After move 35, black has strong positions on both sides of white, so even if white lives, that group may not be the most influential.

So I was losing the game because of 28?

topazg · #6

Alguien wrote:

skydyr wrote:

Move 28: This is gote and contrary to the spirit of the previous move. After move 35, black has strong positions on both sides of white, so even if white lives, that group may not be the most influential.

So I was losing the game because of 28?

I don't think so, and I think I disagree slightly with skydyr. I think your :w28:

was precisely in the spirit of your previous move, but I think it's the wrong spirit - it looks to me very much like you want to kill Black at the bottom and are removing his escape route. However, you can't really do this right now. If Black waltzes out through your formation then the disconnection is a tiny gote move, and :w26:

becomes relatively meaningless. You can probably K3 instead followed by L5, as I suspect Black will still have to connect underneath in gote, but my instinct is either L4 or L5 (which doesn't leave cutting points) directly. Force Black to cry about connecting in gote on the second line rather than hope for a kill against a group that isn't as weak as it looks (it's only weak because you're surrounding it - once he breaks through the middle, it's :w26:

that's weak instead).

Alguien · #7

topazg wrote:

Alguien wrote:

So I was losing the game because of 28?

I don't think so

I do see L4, but I read L5 as possible to cut:

L4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc L4 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . 6 5 . O O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 3 4 O . O X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . 2 X . O X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

L5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc L5 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . 8 3 4 . O O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . 0 1 6 5 O . O X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . 2 X . O X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, my bigger worry is: Is this the losing move? Did I play so badly in general as to be losing by 15 by the time b blundered into defeat, with a single blunder here?

There must be some root general strategy mistake I made that put me in the losing end of that game.

topazg · #8

I think that :w7:

is a mistake:

L5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc L5 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . 7 3 4 . O O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 6 5 O . O X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . 0 2 X . O X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . 9 . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You still have "a" .. but it's a mess. I kinda think L5 is bad now, but I've put some thoughts into an .sgf:

Alguien · #9

topazg wrote:

You still have "a" .. but it's a mess. I kinda think L5 is bad now, but I've put some thoughts into an .sgf:

Thank you so very much. Now I finally understand my game.

6 - I should have gone with my instincts based on whole board instead of dumbly getting into a joseki.
28+ - as seen.
58 - I see now the mistake. to get a dubious entry into his moyo I gave up the entire wall I had already paid for.
68 - The noseki that cost me sente. For some reason joseki makes me forget of sente when it's most important.
78 - The non-following of hane instincts that caused problems later. This one should be easy to correct.
82 - I seriously have to stop defending thickness instead of throwing groups at it.
102 - If I decide I'm losing and have to shake the board. I really have to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war. (And not defend the fricking thickness!)

I'm much happier now. The creeping terror of "I just don't play well enough" is averted.

skydyr · **#10**

topazg wrote:

I don't think so, and I think I disagree slightly with skydyr. I think your :w28:

was precisely in the spirit of your previous move, but I think it's the wrong spirit - it looks to me very much like you want to kill Black at the bottom and are removing his escape route. However, you can't really do this right now. If Black waltzes out through your formation then the disconnection is a tiny gote move, and :w26:

becomes relatively meaningless. You can probably K3 instead followed by L5, as I suspect Black will still have to connect underneath in gote, but my instinct is either L4 or L5 (which doesn't leave cutting points) directly. Force Black to cry about connecting in gote on the second line rather than hope for a kill against a group that isn't as weak as it looks (it's only weak because you're surrounding it - once he breaks through the middle, it's :w26:

that's weak instead).

When I said that originally, I was looking at L5 to press black down and force the gote connection under, as you mentioned. I don't think white was losing terribly by any means, but that white was reducing his own potential and needed to find compensation.

topazg · **#11**

Alguien wrote:

82 - I seriously have to stop defending thickness instead of throwing groups at it.
102 - If I decide I'm losing and have to shake the board. I really have to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war. (And not defend the fricking thickness!)

I'm much happier now. The creeping terror of "I just don't play well enough" is averted.

Yes yes yes, and great

skydyr wrote:

When I said that originally, I was looking at L5 to press black down and force the gote connection under, as you mentioned. I don't think white was losing terribly by any means, but that white was reducing his own potential and needed to find compensation.

Yeah, I agree with you completely on that - and it was against the spirit that K4 was meant to have been played in. I think alguien was harbouring some hopes that Black was already a bit screwed, and just about to die big - in which case cutting him off then would have been logical. If Black tenuki'd L4, I'd definitely want to separate. It's just the timing was ... slightly off

skydyr · **#12**

Just realized I meant L4 in the previous post, not L5.

FlameBlade · **#13**

at move 147, find a better move than black 148. The followup will involve a tesuji, and big gains in endgame there. Good exercise.

Also, Move 101 -- center is dime a dozen... not that big as he will need to spend several moves reducing that! Take sente and attack the corner, and try to keep sente! Corner usually much bigger than center.

cyclops · **#14**

Flameblade's first:

Flameblade's second:

I liked the way Lamp commented. He knew he was not stronger than Alguien but still made some interesting observations. Not all made sense but that happens to me also when commenting stronger player ( even with weaker players ). I also liked the respectfull way Alguien reacted.

Lamp · **#15**

cyclops wrote:

I liked the way Lamp commented. He knew he was not stronger than Alguien but still made some interesting observations. Not all made sense but that happens to me also when commenting stronger player ( even with weaker players ). I also liked the respectfull way Alguien reacted.

Hope nobody is bothered if/when I comment on a stronger player's game. It's a useful exercise for me, if nothing else, to compare my thoughts to those of other stronger players later in the thread. it also forces me to thoroughly review a game, which is something I don't do often enough.

Lamp · **#16**

Alguien wrote:

A15 connects.

I don't read b as you do. What if b goes directly to C12 and C9 instead of connecting?

A15 connects the upper 2 stones to the corner, but then other stones die (shown in the diagram originally posted).

If b goes directly to C12, I suppose that's a bit of a problem. I forgot to check that sequence. I feel like you might be able to push the stones into your thickness at the top and kill an even larger group as a result, but I guess the proverb goes something like "If you can't read exactly how the killing sequence plays out, you shouldn't attempt it".

Alguien · **#17**

FlameBlade wrote:

at move 147, find a better move than black 148. The followup will involve a tesuji, and big gains in endgame there. Good exercise.

FlameBlade wrote:

Also, Move 101 -- center is dime a dozen... not that big as he will need to spend several moves reducing that! Take sente and attack the corner, and try to keep sente! Corner usually much bigger than center.

Yes, topazg added some variations of how I should have punished that tenuki to my attachment.

Thank you.

Alguien · **#18**

Lamp wrote:

cyclops wrote:

I liked the way Lamp commented. He knew he was not stronger than Alguien but still made some interesting observations. Not all made sense but that happens to me also when commenting stronger player ( even with weaker players ). I also liked the respectfull way Alguien reacted.

Hope nobody is bothered if/when I comment on a stronger player's game. It's a useful exercise for me, if nothing else, to compare my thoughts to those of other stronger players later in the thread. it also forces me to thoroughly review a game, which is something I don't do often enough.

I don't think anyone is. I did the same not two weeks ago and my comment was even after another one of a higher ranked forumite. I didn't read the previous one at first and I then compared my comments to his'.

I think commenting other people's games that you can understand (not pros) is a useful learning tool. The fact that it may help the other guy is a big bonus.

A game I couldn't read

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