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2k vs 2k, ogs-game
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7292		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  bayu [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  2k vs 2k, ogs-game
Comments highly appreciated (from any rank. I don't mind if you're supposedly weaker. It's about discussion)

In the beginning, the game seemed easy to me. But I was attacking without gaining proper profit. There the first alarm bells rang. Should I have attacked differently or not at all? Or did I simply not see my profit?

Later, I misread the status of my group at the top, ended up with two weak groups and my tesuji-skillz weren't good enough to handle them against a good opponent, so I died. But I think the problems were already in the beginning. I should never have ended up with the weak groups and I really felt that I had the initiative until my 2 weak groups were born. Please tell me off, if this a wrong perception. At 99 I believe that attacking at K3 was stronger than to live on the side. And 123 at G16 would have saved me a fair share of headache. Other than that I'm rather clueless, so I hope I can get some imput from posting it here. The game seems to be good study material for me.

Anyway, I feel proud that my opponent was forced to create a tasty dumpling :) . Tombstone-tesujis rock!



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Author:  Unusedname [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2k vs 2k, ogs-game
My opinions!

Isn't your profit there on the bottom?

I think :b59: should be somewhere around F3 to take advantage of the wall you got then if white responds to F3 you can try to end in sente to go back to attacking the weak group, if he defends the weak group you can jump up and threaten to surround his 4-4 stone while building up a moyo

In my opinion :b61: looks like the wrong direction because your moyo looks shrunken due to the H3 stone.
and plus pushing white in that direction forced you to defend with :b63:

I think you should have got K3 before white did but it didn't look like you had time since your stones got cut off at :w80:

There were a few other things I would have wanted to do as you, but because of the groups at the top and bottom not being alive it would have been hard.

Also I would have played :b37: at R9 but maybe you had a good reason to play that way? idk cause i'm bad at keeping groups weak.
Author:  Splatted [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2k vs 2k, ogs-game
Another lower ranked player taking you at your word:

I think 33 was an overplay; White's not that weak and you're not that strong. IMHO Immediately destroying white's eyespace is pointless because it's better for white not to have to live small locally (and you gave her something weak to attack, which actually made things easier for her).

Instead, I would play something like P11, looking to gain profit in the centre and top right. As the local situation becomes more settled the eyesteal becomes more dangerous, so you can look forward to either playing it later, or forcing white to spend a move defending.
Author:  Shaddy [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2k vs 2k, ogs-game
Splatted wrote:
Another lower ranked player taking you at your word:

I think 33 was an overplay; White's not that weak and you're not that strong. IMHO Immediately destroying white's eyespace is pointless because it's better for white not to have to live small locally (and you gave her something weak to attack, which actually made things easier for her).

Instead, I would play something like P11, looking to gain profit in the centre and top right. As the local situation becomes more settled the eyesteal becomes more dangerous, so you can look forward to either playing it later, or forcing white to spend a move defending.


No, Q8 is the right spirit but the wrong place. Letting white make good shape locally would be too easy on him: give him a heavy group to defend.
Author:  TheBigH [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2k vs 2k, ogs-game
I can't imagine that an "armpit hit" right up close to a white wall is a good idea. Where should bayu have played instead?
Author:  Splatted [ Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2k vs 2k, ogs-game
Shaddy wrote:

No, Q8 is the right spirit but the wrong place. Letting white make good shape locally would be too easy on him: give him a heavy group to defend.


What's the right spirit and the right place?
Author:  bayu [ Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2k vs 2k, ogs-game
Thank you for the replies!

Splatted wrote:

What's the right spirit and the right place?


I'm intrigued, too. Please enlighten us, Shaddy! The other moves I looked at were o6 and o7. But I didn't see a sequence that I liked (and still see none.). During the game, the sequence I liked started with R9 but my plan didn't survive contact with the ennemy.. :)
I dismissed P11 as it seems wrong direction to me. The bottom was larger than the right. And having my wall in the top right simply staring at his group and annoying him, felt good enough.

Unusedname wrote:
Isn't your profit there on the bottom?


That's certainly profit, but white got free stones on the left side which is profit too. I wanted more in terms of influence. Balance-type thing. I felt that I didn't get enough compensation. Maybe it's greed, maybe a misdirected ineffective attack. I still think it is the latter.

Unusedname wrote:
I think :b59: should be somewhere around F3 to take advantage of the wall you got then if white responds to F3 you can try to end in sente to go back to attacking the weak group, if he defends the weak group you can jump up and threaten to surround his 4-4 stone while building up a moyo


You're probably right. I didn't want to let the white dragon off the hook so easily. But that was probably called for. I could have gone back to harass it at a later stage.


Unusedname wrote:

In my opinion :b61: looks like the wrong direction because your moyo looks shrunken due to the H3 stone.
and plus pushing white in that direction forced you to defend with :b63:



I think my direction is the correct one (there is not much to gain from the other side). The move ended up being sente, so I could play F3 which was the plan when I played :b61:.


Unusedname wrote:
I think you should have got K3 before white did but it didn't look like you had time since your stones got cut off at :w80:


I agree with you. :b79: looks a lot better on K3 than on the left side.

Unusedname wrote:
There were a few other things I would have wanted to do as you, but because of the groups at the top and bottom not being alive it would have been hard.

oh yes, my whishlist was big, too :)

Unusedname wrote:
Also I would have played :b37: at R9 but maybe you had a good reason to play that way? idk cause i'm bad at keeping groups weak.


R9 has shape issues as well, but might be better. The problem seems to be earlier, though: :b33: was at the wrong spot.
Author:  Shaddy [ Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2k vs 2k, ogs-game
I think Black should play o6 to ruin the shape

edit: what am I typing? I meant to say r8. o6 also looks fine though, it's hard to decide.
Author:  mitsun [ Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2k vs 2k, ogs-game
Comments on the comments:

After move 32, I think B leads. The B corner profit looks better to me than the unanswered W moves on the left side of the board. So I would not be in a hurry to complicate the game by attacking W on the right side. If W spends an extra move to defend, say at R9, I would not mind losing the chance to attack, and would be satisfied to take a large point elsewhere.

Also, I am not sure at this early stage how best to attack. B has moves like P11 or R9, which make profit while applying mild pressure, or O6 which makes thickness in the center. B can also start a base-stealing attack with Q8 or R8, but it is not clear what profit B gets from forcing W to run into the center. So I would prefer to keep all these options in reserve for later, after seeing how the game develops.
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