How close should I play

Unusedname · #1

Hello just want to ask about one move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The real game went like this.

I was happy with the result but i also felt like i let his group settle too easily

When I looked back I thought maybe.

this would be better?

if he fixes with a i can still jump out to b and harass his group later

if he pincers me i can play a before i jump out. and then have two groups to attack.

Am I right in thinking this way or am i being greedy?
Also I'm assuming the answer would be completely different if the stone in the UR was white. Because then white would only have 1 weak group. But mine would be the weaker one.

Shaddy · #2

I would play this way.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 1 3 . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . a X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O 5 . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

By the way, the marked black move is wrong, and should be at A.

Unusedname · #3

haha oh i guess i should read cuts before i assume the just won't work
:oops:

arggh
okay okay i'll find another game where the cut doesn't work and post it here again to ask where i should peep :]

Quote:

By the way, the marked black move is wrong, and should be at A.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

he played this way
I've been seeing this 4 a lot.

but in other games it usually went like this

and i'm not sure whether to hane at a or b, but i usually choose a.

Shaddy · #4

Sorry, I don't know what I was thinking. The marked black stone was fine, I didn't think about the order in the joseki. In the other variation, I think the hane at b is correct.

Bill Spight · #5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Without even reading out the cut, this does not look so good. True, White is a bit overconcentrated, but it is questionable to make a strong play and then to have to take gote to shore up the resulting weakness. If you can't sacrifice :b1:

, then maybe you should not play it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . 1 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

With strength on the bottom side, I would play :b7:

at 8.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here I would hane at "a", on the otherwise empty board.

Unusedname · #6

Bill Spight wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . 1 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

With strength on the bottom side, I would play :b7:

at 8.

haha this came up again it looked like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X O O . X . . . . . W O 1 . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . X X . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X , . . . . . X B . . | $$ | . . . . O X O . O X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

my reasoning for playing the same way was that my position on the left was very thick, and because of the cut i just learned, my corner would also be very thick.

so even if white came in, he wouldn't make very much territory.

I did plan on playing on the right side to either make his group weak or his wall inefficient. But I didn't get there in time.

Would you agree with the way I played?

or Do you still think I should have taken the point of the white stone?

around move 35

edit: that's strange.... after posting the diagram my perspective seems to have changed... lol I think I should have played the way you suggested....

I would have had strong hanes on both sides...

ahaha i'm a schizophrenic go player...

peppernut · #7

You said you didn't like the result after :w44:

, but I cannot see any fault in it. You have an enormous corner territory and white's wall looks to be of less value. There's a cutting point in it, and you have the star point on the facing corner.

When White approaches your bottom territory to reduce it, I want to defend the bottom side. I don't know which move is best, but I instinctively like the attachment as so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . O . X O O . X . . . a . O O X X O | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . X X . . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X , . . . B . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O X O . O X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I find your :b45:

@a to be an empty move, not really reducing any white moyo nor extending your own.

It's close to white thickness and it threatens to cut, but as soon as you respond to white's contact play, it's gote. And you give white good shape.

If you want to reduce the potential of White's wall, play at R14 instead; it stops white from making a large extension from his thickness.

Alguien · #8

Unusedname wrote:

haha oh i guess i should read cuts before i assume the just won't work

Or you could just cut everything and make the cuts work in some way.

It seems to work at least up to 4d.

HermanHiddema · #9

Unusedname wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

he played this way
I've been seeing this 4 a lot.

The better way to play here is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Cut at 7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

then the usual would be:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 Follow-up $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O X 2 9 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 8 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X 6 a . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black sacrifices two stones, in exchange for which he gets the forcing moves :b11:

,

and

.

After this exchange, black has achieved several things;

1. He has protected the corner. There is no need to defend at a, if white plays there you can respond with b to protect the corner while only giving a few points. Playing elsewhere is definitely bigger right now (and probably still big after the a-b exchange, so you could play elsewhere again in that scenario)

2. He has built influence along the left side. The black stone at :b11:

makes this much more powerful than the earlier example you gave, where white has a stone there.

3. He has kept sente and can take the initiative to play something big elsewhere. If there are no stones along the bottom side yet, it could be big to extend from the black wall, for example on the lower side star point.

This result is good for black. White should have played the hane :w6:

before the move at :w4:

, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Normal $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here, as we see black extends to :b5:

in response to the hane, and defends the corner with :b7:

. This is normal.

ez4u · **#10**

Locally Black would like to play :b1:

below. This is a nice suji that not only threatens to cut at "a" but is a ladder breaker for the other cut at "b". It is a known continuation in the high Chinese fuseki but in that case there is a Black stone on the point equivalent to "c" (everything is one line further down the board and one line to the left in the Chinese fuseki case). Without support for Black, White may be able to go ahead and fight.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . b O O . | $$ | . . O . X O O . X . . . . 1 O O X X O | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . a X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . X X . . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O X O . O X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For reference...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Rin Kaiho - Kataoka Satoshi, 18th Meijin League, 1993-02-05 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 9 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . X 0 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O O X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O X X . | $$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . O . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Alguien · **#11**

ez4u wrote:

Locally Black would like to play :b1:

below. This is a nice suji that not only threatens to cut at "a" but is a ladder breaker for the other cut at "b".

I love it and I want to understand the underlying concept. I'll make a thread about that.

How close should I play

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