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lost by 10 points
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8831		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  otenki [ Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:04 am ]
Post subject:  lost by 10 points
I lost this game by 10 points.
Is it because I did not attack the group on top well enough ?
I think my oponents strategy was to play very fast and have weaknesses which he tries to get away with. Not sure if I did not exploit the weaknesses good enough or if I should have taken a different aproach to this game.

One thing i see is that I should have cut at 124 instead of the throw in.

Any tips are appreciated !
Author:  p2501 [ Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: lost by 10 points
at :w30: I thought 3-3 was mandatory. :w34: was slow I think
Author:  otenki [ Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: lost by 10 points
yeah i agree 34 was slow and it is not so important as the group to the left is still weak.
I should have taken sente.

Cheers,
Otenki
Author:  Unusedname [ Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: lost by 10 points
The only move I think I can comment on is :w66:

I think white should definitely play L17 or M17 and steal the black base smoothly

Both white's groups are super thick and so black will have a hard time finding any forcing moves.

In any case if :w66: was from the right direction
then I think it still looks too soft
Author:  otenki [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: lost by 10 points
Unusedname:

I used to play lots of L17/M17 moves. Basically if you can read very deep that the group dies these are good moves.

BUT if you are not sure that the group will die and just want to chase the group in order to reduce teritory/influence of your oponent (like I was trying to do) then my 66 move is better I think.

Just think about white playing L17 and then black replying with a jump to the center lightly. Now you are behind in the chase, what will you do now ?

In the same regard I think I should not yet have played N18 (move 78) at that time, I first should have sealed in more...

Of course I'm not sure about this, So I'd love a comment from a strong player on this.

Cheers,
Otenki
Author:  thirdfogie [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: lost by 10 points
Hi Otenki,

You are about 4 stones stronger than me, so I can't comment. I do have two questions. :)

White 50 is an attachment at d14. Since White's top left corner is already quite strong,
did you consider invading at c12 instead?

The second question is related to the first. After move 65, White has played a lot of stones in
the top left area, but does not have much territory to show for it. It seems to me that to win
the game from that point, White has to kill Black's stones on the upper side, which
will be difficult. Were you happy with your position at that point?
Author:  otenki [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: lost by 10 points
thirdfogie wrote:

White 50 is an attachment at d14. Since White's top left corner is already quite strong,
did you consider invading at c12 instead?



The whole point of this attachment was to create outside influence to make the top center group weak. If black replies just by taking teritory then I can chase the top-middle group easier.

The reason that black ignored this and started on the offense instead should give you a clue about that.


thirdfogie wrote:
The second question is related to the first. After move 65, White has played a lot of stones in
the top left area, but does not have much territory to show for it. It seems to me that to win
the game from that point, White has to kill Black's stones on the upper side, which
will be difficult. Were you happy with your position at that point?


Do you know the worth of a weak group ?
Generaly a lot! A weak group on the board will give you lots of forcing moves.

So lets say you can use the weak group to make points. Then the weak group is equal to those points.

Howhever in this case I can use the weak group to reduce blacks potential. So yeah I was happy to have a weak group to chase. And I thought I was in a good position because I could use that group to reduce at this point.

Howhever I threw in at move 124 instead of just cutting, very bad. And probably I could have still reduced better but I don't know ...

Hope that answers the questions.

Cheers,
Otenki
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: lost by 10 points
Some top of the head comments. :)

My impression is that you got behind in the opening and never quite caught up. You made up a lot of lost ground in the early middle game fighting, but, as you indicate, your attack on the top side group fizzled, as Black ran out and enlarged his framework. Even so, had you not taken gote, but had followed up with the double atari in the top left you would have had a better game. If possible, when you attack, you should kill or make profit, or else keep sente.

:w8: If you play the large knight's approach Black will not have a severe pincer that works with his other stones.

:w10: Better play the diagonal towards the center, to counteract Black's influence, IMO.

:w16: Pincer the Black orphan. You have this capture left if you need it.

:w26: Pincer the Black stones on the top. Hell or high water!

:w28: Urgent to pincer the bottom stone. Got anything against pincers?

:b29: Now it is very difficult for White to win.

:b31: Now tengen, a one space jump from the bottom left star point, or even the 3-3 to secure the corner would pretty much seal the game.

:w34: An endgame play.

:w38: Oh, great! Give Black thickness, why don't you? You already have three corners. The concept of balance would help you to avoid this kind of play.

:w66: Not severe. Particularly given your great thickness. My first thought is M-16, to cut the Black group in two.

:w80: You do not need to save this stone. How about the capping play at M-12, to keep Black from running out? Then if Black manages to live, go back to the double atari in the top left corner.
Author:  otenki [ Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: lost by 10 points
Thanks a lot Bill !!!

These were some big things which I had missed when reviewing myself. :-)

Cheers,
Otenki
Author:  mitsun [ Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: lost by 10 points
I do not see any comments yet on :w60: Surely you should just block at C16. B may live in the corner, but W would get perfect outside thickness and sente and a much better result than the game sequence.

I will add one more claim that :w66: is too soft. M16 is probably the strongest attack, splitting and capturing half of the group outright. M17 and L17 are also worth considering, to steal the B base and make W territory there. The goal of those moves would be to chase the B group into the center. What you gain from that is an easy reduction of the potential B center influence and territory. If you really want to attack from the outside, then L14 looks nice. The strongest W group helping the attack is to the left, so you want to chase B in that direction. Then the B stones will be running on dame while you build useful center strength.
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