Life In 19x19 :: losing streak starting to look alot brighter

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Author:	balmung [ Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:	losing streak starting to look alot brighter
I've been on a losing streak because my emotions will kick in when I make a mistake causing the game to go to a pile of poop. This game is the first one where I was able to control my emotions after making a huge mistake and nearly coming back.

Author: Jonas [ Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:46 pm ]

Post subject: Re: losing streak starting to look alot brighter

Hey Balmung,
my apprenticeship exam is in 1 hour so here is just a short comment, I'll add more when I'm back

:

White did a very bad josekimistake in the first moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . B . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move 4 is an overplay, with the help of the original kakaristone (marked) black can punish white!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . B . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move 5 is the move to remember, know white is trapped:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 3 b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . B . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After the black cut at 3 white has three options:

'a' - This atari leads to a very bad position, when white saves her three stones Black can cut at 'c' and white is doomed.

'b' - This atari works opposed to the intention of whites hane and leads big territory for black and nice aji with the marked stone.

So maybe the simplest and best solution is 'c'?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 5 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . B . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here the hane at 5 is the tesuji which enables you to capture white, this is disastrous for white!

Author:	aurik [ Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: losing streak starting to look alot brighter
I have attached a few variations on how to punish the severe hane. Attachment: kong-motmot.sgf [5.03 KiB] Downloaded 829 times Also, some comments at a few other points. Tenuki at a few key points would have dramatically changed the complexion of the game.

Author:	Dusk Eagle [ Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: losing streak starting to look alot brighter
Hey aurik, if you take the url of that file and put it in between [sgf] tags (minus the ), it will display in the forums. Also, in one of your variations, you miss a ladder to capture four white stones in and utterly destroy him . Anyway, here's my review: And here's aurik's, just for convenience:

Author: Solomon [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:43 am ]

Post subject: Re: losing streak starting to look alot brighter

Regarding the mistake on the lower left corner that everyone is talking about, there is also this punishment which, to my eyes at least, is easier to remember:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O 4 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is the tesuji to remember. If :w6:

, then B calmly plays :b7:

. At first glance it doesn't seem like White got punished, but it's easier to see when you look at the normal line of play and rely on simple tewari analysis:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b a 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 3 9 X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Everyone and their grandkids know this joseki. Looks awfully similar to the first diagram, but the difference is that White makes the 'a' -> 'b' exchange before playing elsewhere, a blatantly obvious aji keshi. Therefore, Black is better off.

Now in the first diagram, if :w6:

is at

, then you play where he should have played. A fight ensues, which can become complex. This is actually the reason why it is okay to play the *bad* hane in this situation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 1 . . . 3 . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 5 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Note

, which makes a difference. The variations can get pretty complicated, and I remember going over this with Alexander Dinerchtein 3p, which stemmed from an argument I had with another member here regarding the joseki variations and whether or not it is a trick play/hamete. If I can find the SGF where we covered the variations (or a textbook source) I'll upload it here.

Author: EdLee [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:16 am ]

Post subject: Re: losing streak starting to look alot brighter

Jonas wrote:

White did a very bad joseki mistake in the first moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 O . . . . . $$ | . . 1 2 . X . O . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ -------------------[/go]

Actually,

does not necessarily have to be "very bad" for White.
For example, if :b5:

, White can connect with :w6:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 6 . . . . . $$ | . . 3 O . 8 . . . $$ | . . 1 2 . X . O . $$ | . . 5 7 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ -------------------[/go]

The real mistake is if White tries to resist with :w6:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 O . . . . . $$ | . . 1 2 . X . O . $$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ -------------------[/go]

However, even in this case:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 5 3 . . . . . $$ | . . O 1 2 . . . . $$ | . . X O . 4 . . . $$ | . . X O . X . O . $$ | . . X O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ -------------------[/go]

White is worse off than joseki for sure, but it is still not a game-ending mistake,
especially for kyu levels.
That said, it is still good to know that the original White :w4:

hane is not joseki,
and it's interesting to study the variations.

Author: EdLee [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:26 am ]

Post subject: joseki variation

Araban wrote:

there is also this punishment which, to my eyes at least, is easier to remember:

Not necessarily, because White can start a fight with :w6:

, and Black must cut with :b7:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . $$ | . 6 O 7 . . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . $$ | . . X O 4 X . O . $$ | . . 3 1 2 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ -------------------[/go]

After this, White turns with :w8:

to continue to fight:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 8 5 . . . . . . $$ | . 6 O 7 . . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . $$ | . . X O 4 X . O . $$ | . . 3 1 2 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ -------------------[/go]

This can lead to very complicated variations.
So if Black wants to "punish" with the :b1:

hane,
Black must be ready for a messy fight.

Author:	Solomon [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: joseki variation
EdLee wrote: Araban wrote: there is also this punishment which, to my eyes at least, is easier to remember: Not necessarily, because White can start a fight with , and Black must cut with : Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . $$ \| . 6 O 7 . . . . . $$ \| . . X O . . . . . $$ \| . . X O 4 X . O . $$ \| . . 3 1 2 . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . $$ -------------------[/go]` After this, White turns with to continue to fight: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . 8 5 . . . . . . $$ \| . 6 O 7 . . . . . $$ \| . . X O . . . . . $$ \| . . X O 4 X . O . $$ \| . . 3 1 2 . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . $$ -------------------[/go]` This can lead to very complicated variations. So if Black wants to "punish" with the hane, Black must be ready for a messy fight. Yes, as I already stated in my earlier post. The fight, while complex, is also slightly advantageous for Black and that is good enough. Just like in the first variation I offered where the advantage is also very slight. There is no such thing as a punishment so severe that it's game-ending here, as well as for most joseki mistakes or hamete/trick play refutations.

Author:	balmung [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: losing streak starting to look alot brighter
Thanks for the comments I knew the common joseki on the bottom left but didn't know how to punish white. When I reviewed the game the first time I found N10 @ 165 the winning move if white dies black wins by over 20 points.

Author:	Magicwand [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: losing streak starting to look alot brighter
i will give you what my master has taught me. you can trust him because he was formal pro in korea. my master (i will not name him) once told me 7 is an overplay and black need to cut. i dont know if 3 make this any different but you should look into cutting 8. my master was known for his aggresive style of playing...giving 1 or 2 more handycap stone than other professionals. he will never let such play go unpunished. and playing 8 is complicated but i believe it is better for black. i am sorry for not giving you total variations for it is beyond the scope of my brain. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 6 1 . . . 3 . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 5 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	EdLee [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:37 am ]
Post subject:	Move 165?
balmung wrote: I found N10 @ 165 the winning move if white dies black wins by over 20 points. In the game, move 165 was B connecting at O9. If instead B nobi with N10, then W plays the atari at O9, capturing the O8 stone -- W connects with the R9 group and is happily alive. Do you mean something else?

Author:	balmung [ Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Move 165?
EdLee wrote: balmung wrote: I found N10 @ 165 the winning move if white dies black wins by over 20 points. In the game, move 165 was B connecting at O9. If instead B nobi with N10, then W plays the atari at O9, capturing the O8 stone -- W connects with the R9 group and is happily alive. Do you mean something else? Black dies with O9 a nobi makes your stones alot stronger and gives him a false eye

Author:	illluck [ Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: losing streak starting to look alot brighter
As far as I can see N10 doesn't kill.

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Move 165?
balmung wrote: Black dies with O9 a nobi makes your stones alot stronger and gives him a false eye Do you mean Black O9 or White O9, and which move number? And which nobi? Could you show your variation(s) with an SGF or diagram? Here are some variations at move 165 with Black N10 nobi:

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