My very first game

Rowen · #1

Okay, I caved and played a game on the KGS server. Thought I was doing well but tons of over sights (among other newbie things plagued me). So here is the game, any advice on what to look for and just point out bad moves in general (I'm sure there are many). Thanks in advance for any assistance.

EdLee · #2

Hi Rowen, congrats on your first KGS game.

One good thing about this game is you can learn about a particular shape:

. :b13:

and

-- Broken shape for B.
. :b33:

,

,

,

-- Broken shape for B.
. :b55:

-- Broken shape for B.
. :b73:

,

,

,

,

-- Broken shape for B.
. :black:

117 -- Broken shape for B.

See also: Toothpaste.

moyoaji · #3

Is this your first 19x19 game ever? Or just the first on the KGS?

EdLee made some great points about shape. I have some comments about opening moves and keeping your stones connected. I gave my final thoughts on the last move.

Don't feel bad about not noticing when your stones are in atari. This mistake actually happens more often than you might think at all levels of the game. I make it from time to time and even professionals have done it. Nakano Yasuhiro 9 dan once made this mistake in a tournament game - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt1FvPxmmfE

I will also point out that you don't seem to use much of your time. Having 25 minutes of time, you used only 7 to play over 60 moves. Don't be afraid to think about moves. Just because your opponent is playing fast doesn't mean you have to.

The dual 6-4 opening is interesting. I'm wondering - why did you choose this opening? The Chinese professional Gan Siyang plays dual 6-4 almost exclusively and has even beaten 9 dan professionals like Cho Chikun using this strategy so it is not wrong, I'm just curious.

Rowen · #4

Wow, thanks guys when I have more time today I'm going to go over everything in detail you have said. Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out.

@EdLee - Thanks for the congrats. (Ill be going over what you were saying, I'm assuming broken shape means it allowed my opponent an advantage?)

@moyoaji - Yes, this was my first 19x19 game ever. I have been playing some 9x9 games on my android tablet but those you could count on one hand. As for the Dual 6-4, I'm confused...my lingo for Go isn't there yet and I'm not sure what you mean by 6-4 (cause I put the stone on Q-4). Sorry about that.....as for why I put my stone there....I think I saw it in Hikaru no go, lol. It seemed to give me a presence in that corner and being offset -to me- gave me more options and perhaps made it not seem like a direct threat.

I'm not sure my reasoning is sound but it felt right.

Thanks again, I'm going to go over all the in much more detail later today.

moyoaji · #5

The stones at Q6 and O16 are referred to as 6-4 stones because they are 6 rows and 4 columns (or 6 columns and 4 rows) from the corner. The order of the numbers doesn't really matter, they could be referred to as 4-6 stones. Corner moves are often referenced based on their proximity to the corner. They also all have fancy Japanese names that people use sometimes and you may recognize some from Hikaru no Go.

Here are some examples:

A 3-4 stone (komoku)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc A 3-4 stone (komoku) $$------- $$|....... $$|....... $$|...X... $$|...,... $$|....... $$|....... $$|.......[/go]

A 4-4 stone (hoshi)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc A 4-4 stone (hoshi) $$------- $$|....... $$|....... $$|....... $$|...X... $$|....... $$|....... $$|.......[/go]

A 5-3 (3-5) stone (mokuhazushi)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc A 5-3 (3-5) stone (mokuhazushi) $$------- $$|....... $$|....... $$|....X.. $$|...,... $$|....... $$|....... $$|.......[/go]

The more traditional understanding of go is that the 3-3, 3-4, 4-4, 3-5, and 5-4 are the "standard" corner openings with 3-4 and 4-4 being the most common. However, 5-5, 6-3, 6-4 and 10-10 (the center point - tengen) are also seen. There is a scene in the New Year's special at the end of Hikaru no Go when he is playing a student from the other Japanese Go Association. That student opens on the 5-5 point. Hikaru then plays tengen and the opponent plays another 5-5 - everyone is shocked.

EdLee · #6

Rowen wrote:

I'm assuming broken shape means...

Hi Rowen, very good question. It brings up a a few interesting points.

(a) When somebody makes a comment about a move -- for example, "Good for Black" --
there is some important but implicit background information, as follows:

Since these implicit conditions are so long and tedious, usually we don't spell them out every time. Examples:

(b) When we learn a new shape or sequence in Go, there are at least two initial phases:
recognition and evaluation. For example:

More examples:

(c) See also: Toothpaste.

Rowen · #7

Finally had a moment to go though each of your comments and I really appreciate that you guys took the time to help me out.

I noticed a lot of what I was doing was placing my stones next to my opponent when I should not have. I was thinking 'capture' to much. I think I understand the subtleties of playing 'near' the attackers stones to strengthen my position on the board before attacking or just placing myself in a better position to defend if that be the case.

That brings me to something else I don't quite understand......counting territory. Seems confusing to me right now, what not to count, what to count,ect.

Thank again for the help!

Edit: Also, I've been watching Hikaru no Go....is it okay to use the Japanese rules or should I use the AGA rule sets?

EdLee · #8

Rowen wrote:

I think I understand the subtleties of...

Understanding is not binary. It's not either/or, not a case of either "you understand" or "you don't understand".
It's a continuum, with infinite levels and shades of subtleties. Your understanding will continue to evolve over time.

Rowen wrote:

I was thinking 'capture' to [sic] much.

Correct -- this is your current level of understanding (which is quite common among beginners around your level).

Rowen wrote:

is it okay to use the Japanese rules or should I use the AGA rule sets?

Either one is OK. Beware that servers like KGS are international, so not everybody is familiar with AGA rules.
Even in the US, not everybody likes to use the AGA rules. Think global.

Rowen · #9

Thanks again. I like the idea of the global rules....I looked over the AGA rules and would be glad not using them lol.

DrStraw · **#10**

I do not mean this in a mean way at all, but the best advice I would give is to play 100 games and them come back and ask for a review. The simple fact is that until you have been exposed to some basic shapes on multiple occasions you are not going to benefit from any review as much as you are from simply playing a lot and playing briskly.

Rowen · **#11**

DrStraw wrote:

I do not mean this in a mean way at all, but the best advice I would give is to play 100 games and them come back and ask for a review. The simple fact is that until you have been exposed to some basic shapes on multiple occasions you are not going to benefit from any review as much as you are from simply playing a lot and playing briskly.

Thank for that, and I understand your not being mean. I do need to play.

Do any of you have tips for the end of play for counting territories. I know there are two ways....counting open spaces and counting open spaces/stones. I'm just a bit confused on the right way...special when there are small groups of stones all over.

judicata · **#12**

Rowen wrote:

DrStraw wrote:

I do not mean this in a mean way at all, but the best advice I would give is to play 100 games and them come back and ask for a review. The simple fact is that until you have been exposed to some basic shapes on multiple occasions you are not going to benefit from any review as much as you are from simply playing a lot and playing briskly.

Thank for that, and I understand your not being mean. I do need to play.

Do any of you have tips for the end of play for counting territories. I know there are two ways....counting open spaces and counting open spaces/stones. I'm just a bit confused on the right way...special when there are small groups of stones all over.

This is kind of hard to answer in the abstract. For these purposes, it may be easiest if you play a few games on a small board (9x9 or even 7x7). Small boards are easier to count, but the mechanics are the same. Then perhaps post one of the games here. Choose a game that went to the counting stage, or at least close to it. Otherwise, it won't be very helpful.

Bill Spight · **#13**

A couple of comments.

skydyr · **#14**

EdLee wrote:

Even in the US, not everybody likes to use the AGA rules. Think global.

This is easier said than done. Which is more global, area counting or territory counting? There may be more countries where territory counting is the norm, but I imagine there are more people in China using area counting than there are using territory counting overall.

As a beginner, though, don't worry about any of this. The right ruleset to use is the one everyone you know uses.

Rowen · **#15**

skydyr wrote:

EdLee wrote:

Even in the US, not everybody likes to use the AGA rules. Think global.

This is easier said than done. Which is more global, area counting or territory counting? There may be more countries where territory counting is the norm, but I imagine there are more people in China using area counting than there are using territory counting overall.

As a beginner, though, don't worry about any of this. The right ruleset to use is the one everyone you know uses.

Great advice....however, I live in Georgia...out in the boonie's with limited travel options (I take care of my parents and on my off days are usually taking them to appts ect). So the ones Ill be playing with are my children (both girls ages 10,12) and 'hopefully' my wife. I hope one day I can get others interested but I would like to learn more before I try to interest others. I guess the most Ill be playing others (not in my household) would be on KGS.

Bill Spight · **#16**

Rowen wrote:

skydyr wrote:

EdLee wrote:

Even in the US, not everybody likes to use the AGA rules. Think global.

This is easier said than done. Which is more global, area counting or territory counting? There may be more countries where territory counting is the norm, but I imagine there are more people in China using area counting than there are using territory counting overall.

As a beginner, though, don't worry about any of this. The right ruleset to use is the one everyone you know uses.

Great advice....however, I live in Georgia...out in the boonie's with limited travel options (I take care of my parents and on my off days are usually taking them to appts ect). So the ones Ill be playing with are my children (both girls ages 10,12) and 'hopefully' my wife. I hope one day I can get others interested but I would like to learn more before I try to interest others. I guess the most Ill be playing others (not in my household) would be on KGS.

The AGA rules were designed with people like you in mind: beginners playing other beginners. Area rules allow any question of life and death at the end of the game to be decided by play. You can just play on until all the stones left on the board are alive. I would suggest scoring just stones plus territory. The whole bit about pass stones is to allow counting territory plus prisoners, which most US players were used to when the AGA rules were adopted.

Rowen · **#17**

Okay, I've played more games and I think I'm learning a little. I'll post my most recent game I played on IGS using Smartgo 3. I lost, but I think I saw more than I have before. Still missed a few Atari's but I feel I'm making progress, slow progress but progress just the same.

Here is the game:

skydyr · **#18**

Rowen wrote:

Okay, I've played more games and I think I'm learning a little. I'll post my most recent game I played on IGS using Smartgo 3. I lost, but I think I saw more than I have before. Still missed a few Atari's but I feel I'm making progress, slow progress but progress just the same.

Here is the game:

I think the biggest thing to take away from this game, at least the early part of it, is that if you elect to split the board in two without fighting or invasions, make sure you have the larger half. The trick to this, of course, is learning to recognize early enough when you are behind on the board, and also learning how long you can wait before invading and still do it successfully, which comes with practice. As a general rule, though, when there are two competing moyos, or frameworks, as in this game, it's the goal of the player with the larger one to keep building, and the goal of the one with the lesser framework to invade, since if both players invade, ignoring each other, the larger moyo has more to lose.

White's problems seem to start at :w10:

through

where white seals off a relatively small amount of territory while black expands his moyo on a much larger scale. With :w18:

and

, white desperately needs to plonk a group down in black's unconsolidated framework to prevent it from all becoming territory. For a while afterwards, there is a possible invasion point around R10, but I think black could let that live small and still win on territory without trouble, and it could be relatively complicated if black doesn't do that. If you look at the board around move 30, black controls the right half of the board with a bit of looseness, but white only really controls the left 4 lines, plus a chunk on the bottom and a bit on the top.

My very first game

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