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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #101 Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:55 pm 
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Pio2001 wrote:
Hello,
Are you talking about the adaptation of the AGA rule (with pass stones and White to make the last move) to include the button ? Then as far as I understand, Bill Spight posted the necessary modifications in page 3 of this topic.

And you must add on top of all this that if some players loose their prisoners, or forget to hand over pass stones, when you have to count the game under area scoring, you must use a different komi (7 instead of 6.5), and a different value for the button (0.5 instead of 0) to re-count the same game !

I don't want to be the referee ! :-?


Well, all my suggestion is to replace the AGA territory scoring rule from
"White makes the last pass" to "The opponent of the first passer makes the last pass". It is easy to remember, and I don't think it is such a hard thing to swallow.

Though I keep saying that I am a fan of button go, I am not a fan of the physical button. It will make the players scary as you guess. The above instruction? Players will chuckle and follow, whether you understood its true meaning or not.

I believe any other complicated texts are related to the removal of known anomalies which existed before the adoption of the button go. That is a whole new issue independent of the button go itself.

About losing prisoners or forgetting the pass stone, again, the problem exists in the current AGA territory scoring rule, and I don't think people really complain about it. (Anyway, most of them have experience of the traditional territory scoring rules, and they know the value of prisoners in those rules. So, when they here "keep the prisoners in this rule", they simply do so.)

While I stay in Britain, they changed the rule to adopt the pass stone. (The previous one was practically the Japanese rule.) I was at the first tournament where the new rule is applied. I knew the rule issues so I just followed it without question. The other people? I don't think they were all rule theoreticians, but they also followed the instruction silently. If the tournament organizer said that instead of "White must make the last pass", "The opponent of the first passer must make the last pass", I don't think there would have been any more grumblings. (Anyway, not surprisingly, most game finished with two successive passes.)

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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #102 Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:00 pm 
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Pio2001 wrote:
A player may pass by handing the opponent one stone (called a pass stone) instead of playing a stone on the board. A pass is always legal. Pass stones are added to the opponent's prisoners. White must make the last move.


How does this sound? I don't think it is so horrible.

A player may pass by handing the opponent one stone (called a pass stone) instead of playing a stone on the board. A pass is always legal. Pass stones are added to the opponent's prisoners. The opponent of the player who first passed must make the last move.

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Jaeup Kim
Professor in Physics, Ulsan National Institute of Science and Technology, Korea
Author of the Book "Understanding the Rules of Baduk", available at http://home.unist.ac.kr/~jukim/index.php?mid=notice&document_srl=752233

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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #103 Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:35 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
However, during the late endgame under area scoring, area counting is appropriate for correct endgame evaluation


Players must make a move within 30 sec or 1 min during major tournaments. They never count area to see if they have 185 points. (When trying "holding half-point ko" strategy, they just add the point they can earn from it. They don't suddenly start counting every stone on board.) I count the area only when I make an "analysis" for book, and.. that's it. Isn't it same for everybody? (Even for my book, I mostly use territory scoring with pass stone. I occasionally used area scoring to check I didn't make a mistake.)

Quote:
Due to the equivalence in counting, popularity in analysis does not provide a justification for scoring.
Well, one may think "area scoring is real" and "AGA territory scoring is just mimicking it". But what about the opposite? One who learned AGA territory scoring from one's first day as a Go player may understand things this way:
1. Two player alternatively play. Both must make equal number of plays. (Sounds fine. Right?)
2. One should count the territory. (Area? That looks awkward.)
3. A pass always costs one point. (So give one pass stone.)

To the player, Go is truly a game counting only territory. And then, when hearing that the area scoring is equivalent to the AGA territory scoring, the person will say "Well.. that is just a rule theoretician's proof, and that doesn't mean anything to me. Equivalence in analysis does not provide a justification for scoring." (Well, the area scoring wouldn't be even popular among people like him. So I had to change a word.)

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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #104 Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:41 pm 
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Pio2001 wrote:
I think that the main thing that will meet player's opposition is the fact that the button is supposed to be worth 0.5 points, but when you count the game filling territory with the prisoners, the button is actually worth zero !


I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Pio2001 wrote:
It is only here to trigger a different rule about who's passing last.

I can't imagine players accepting that.


Actually, it's the other way around. The rule about who passes last is one way to implement the button. Another way is to say that Black pays one point to make the first pass, but White does not (by the WMSG rules). The original idea of pass stones was to implement area scoring, it was not that area scoring was a way to trigger pass stones. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #105 Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:15 pm 
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jaeup wrote:
when hearing that the area scoring is equivalent to the AGA territory scoring, the person will say "Well.. that is just a rule theoretician's proof


I am not talking about equivalence of scoring rules. I talk about equivalence of positional judgement and endgame evaluation under a) territory scoring rules or b) area scoring rules. Equivalence of positional judgement and endgame evaluation do not require equivalence of scoring rules a la AGA Rules. Equivalence of positional judgement and endgame evaluation can be applied to games played under every ruleset of territory or area scoring: Japanese, Korean, Chinese etc.

Quote:
Players must make a move within 30 sec or 1 min during major tournaments. They never count area to see if they have 185 points.


I reply here: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=246255#p246255

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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #106 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:24 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Pio2001 wrote:
I think that the main thing that will meet player's opposition is the fact that the button is supposed to be worth 0.5 points, but when you count the game filling territory with the prisoners, the button is actually worth zero !


I'm not sure what you mean by that.


I am talking about your description of AGA territory button go in page 3 of this discussion.
The introduction to button go in general says that there is a token, called the "button", that is worth 0.5 points. Which means that it is interesting to take it once there are no more valuable plays available.
But in the rules, the one taking the button does not get 0.5 points. Instead, he -sometimes- gets the right not to hand a pass stone when he passes.

That's one artificial way (the button) to trigger another artificial way (the pass stone) to get some points.
I can already see the player's reaction : "Come on, we're playing go, not poker ! The points are on the board !"

Bill Spight wrote:
Actually, it's the other way around. The rule about who passes last is one way to implement the button.


That is what Jaeup has just talked about.
Your text was different. In your version, one has both to be careful about taking the button and also to be careful about who passes last.

Bill Spight wrote:
Another way is to say that Black pays one point to make the first pass, but White does not (by the WMSG rules).


One point of area or one point of territory ? Sorry I don't know the WMSG rule.

Bill Spight wrote:
The original idea of pass stones was to implement area scoring, it was not that area scoring was a way to trigger pass stones. ;)


Right, this is pure area scoring. Pass stones are just here as a way of counting faster. They don't change the rule.

Here lies the main difficulty for the adoption of button go, in my opinion : the button changes the rules. The pass stones did not.
It even changes the rules in a way that is very difficult to understand. It looks like territory scoring at first sight, but not completely. At least not as the Japanese rule defines "territory".

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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #107 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:05 am 
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jaeup wrote:
The first change to go to the button go is the adoption of the pass stone in the existing area scoring rule.
About this we have actual data: narrow support so far as mentioned.

Quote:
The second change is the adoption of the rule that "the opponent of the second passer makes the lass pass." If they already accepted the pass stone, I don't think it is such an enormous barrier. (Of course Korean/Japanese players will welcome it, and the Chinese player's reaction is the only issue.)
Korean/Japanese players would probably prefer this over being forced to play in Chinese rules, but I don't see them accepting this over their existing game (little benefit).

For Chinese players I'd expect two problems. First is the general inertia against any rule change (which is a GOOD THING in my opinion). The second is the "delay winning last ko" trick. This significantly changes the game and strategy in not-so-rare positions, creating a third game besides Japanese/Korean and Chinese. I wonder what Chinese pros would think about this ruling. (And this is why something along the lines of "fewer stones played wins ties" seems interesting.)

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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #108 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:47 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Capture game
$$ ----------
$$ | . O X X X |
$$ | O O O X . |
$$ | O O X X X |
$$ | 1 O O X . |
$$ | 2 O X X X |
$$ -----------[/go]


"We know that White can play on the left side to a position worth 0. If Black plays on the left side White can capture the Black stone and win, so Black has no play there. We count the left side as 1 pt. for White. By convention we write values from Black's point of view, so we score the left side as -1."

If B starts, we get {|0}. If W starts, we get {|} = 0. Is {|0} = -1? So is the initial left side {0|-1}? What number is this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Capture game
$$ ----------
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ -----------[/go]


"Continuing in this vein, we can score the right side as +3"

Explain for CGT calculations for the variations, please! It is not obvious.

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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #109 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:21 am 
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Pio2001 wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Pio2001 wrote:
I think that the main thing that will meet player's opposition is the fact that the button is supposed to be worth 0.5 points, but when you count the game filling territory with the prisoners, the button is actually worth zero !


I'm not sure what you mean by that.


I am talking about your description of AGA territory button go in page 3 of this discussion.
The introduction to button go in general says that there is a token, called the "button", that is worth 0.5 points. Which means that it is interesting to take it once there are no more valuable plays available.


That is a description of the button under area scoring, not territory scoring.

Quote:
But in the rules, the one taking the button does not get 0.5 points. Instead, he -sometimes- gets the right not to hand a pass stone when he passes.


You will note that I separated the two sets of rules, depending on the scoring method. The easiest way to implement the button under areas scoring is to use a token worth ½ point. AGA territory scoring uses pass stones, so that is not the easiest way in that case. You are complaining about the inconsistency between the two, which will affect neither the play nor strategy.

Quote:
I can already see the player's reaction : "Come on, we're playing go, not poker ! The points are on the board !"


Players who feel that way can use the territory scoring method. :)

Quote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Actually, it's the other way around. The rule about who passes last is one way to implement the button.


That is what Jaeup has just talked about.
Your text was different. In your version, one has both to be careful about taking the button and also to be careful about who passes last.


People have objected to the rule that White must sometimes make a third, obligatory pass. I wrote the text to get over the objection of sometimes having an obligatory pass. Jaeup requires an obligatory pass, not by White, but by the player who did not take the button. Both in his implementation and mine you have to be careful about taking the button and about who passes last.

Quote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Another way is to say that Black pays one point to make the first pass, but White does not (by the WMSG rules).


One point of area or one point of territory ? Sorry I don't know the WMSG rule.


From an earlier note in this thread.

Bill Spight wrote:
The 2008 World Mind Sports Games in Beijing implemented Button Go without calling it that. They used area counting, but implemented the button in this way.

WMSG Rules of Go wrote:
There are two types of compensations. The first type depends on who passes first in the game. If White passes first, Black's score is reduced by 1. If Black passes first, no such compensation is given.
The second type of compensation aims to balance the advantage enjoyed by the player who makes the first play. To ensure a fair game, the Black player is asked to deduct an amount from his total points, traditionally known as the komi (tie-xian in Chinese). The amount of komi in this tournament is set to be 6.5 points.
Emphasis mine.

In the tournament they used the Ing fill-in method of counting.

Quote:
Bill Spight wrote:
The original idea of pass stones was to implement area scoring, it was not that area scoring was a way to trigger pass stones. ;)


Right, this is pure area scoring. Pass stones are just here as a way of counting faster. They don't change the rule.

Here lies the main difficulty for the adoption of button go, in my opinion : the button changes the rules. The pass stones did not.

Actually, they did change the rules. Before their adoption the AGA played by Japanese scoring. And even today, most AGA players use some form of Japanese scoring in their regular online games.

Quote:
It even changes the rules in a way that is very difficult to understand. It looks like territory scoring at first sight, but not completely. At least not as the Japanese rule defines "territory".


No, they are not. The main difference with Japanese rules is that points are counted for territory in seki.

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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #110 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:28 am 
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jaeup wrote:
There was an interesting game in a Women's professional league game. (Youngjoo Lee (W) vs Minjin Lee (B))

It is in the third figure of the following article.
http://baduk.hangame.com/news.nhn?gseq=66073&m=view&page=1&searchfield=&leagueseq=0&searchtext=

I've yet to see the on-air commentary, so I do not know how the referee explained it.
Anyway, the conclusion seems to be correct in the current Korean ruleset. Also, the conclusion is the same in the current Japanese ruleset. In both cases, White can find a hypothetical play to capture all Black stones.

White does not need to make a further play at the upper left corner, and that ended the game with W + 0.5 win. :lol:


Hello,
Going back to the initial topic : you say that the conclusion is the same under the current japanese ruleset.

How can it be ? I was under the impression that under japanese rules, if the only thing left on the board is an unfinished ko, the intersection that is inside is not a point of territory (because of the unwritten rule that says that if we lift ko bans and give the sente to the opponent, the ko may be recaptured, therefore one of the stones around the empty intersection is dead).
Why is it different in this game ? According to the same reasoning, the white stone A16 should be dead, therefore the intersection A15 is dame, therefore White has no territory in A13 until she fills A15.

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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #111 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:32 am 
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moha wrote:
The second is the "delay winning last ko" trick. This significantly changes the game and strategy in not-so-rare positions, creating a third game besides Japanese/Korean and Chinese.


I don't think that it significantly changes the strategy. OC, sometimes it does, for particular situations. But the strategy of delaying the winning of a ko to gain one or more points is well known by strong players. If the player who can win a ko is called the komaster, the player who can profitably delay winning a ko is the komonster. Komonster strategy is not a new idea. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #112 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:54 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Capture game
$$ ----------
$$ | . O X X X |
$$ | O O O X . |
$$ | O O X X X |
$$ | 1 O O X . |
$$ | 2 O X X X |
$$ -----------[/go]


"We know that White can play on the left side to a position worth 0. If Black plays on the left side White can capture the Black stone and win, so Black has no play there. We count the left side as 1 pt. for White. By convention we write values from Black's point of view, so we score the left side as -1."

If B starts, we get {|0}. If W starts, we get {|} = 0. Is {|0} = -1? So is the initial left side {0|-1}? What number is this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Capture game
$$ ----------
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ -----------[/go]


"Continuing in this vein, we can score the right side as +3"

Explain for CGT calculations for the variations, please! It is not obvious.


As you indicate, in CGT terms {0|} = 1. Then {1|} = 2, and {2|} = 3.

But we do not have to ask beginners to learn CGT to score the Capture Game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Capture game
$$ ----------
$$ | O O X X X |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | O O X X X |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | O O X X X |
$$ -----------[/go]


In this position both right and left sides are worth 0, since one player cannot play there and the other one cannot afford to play there. In each case we can count the territory as 2 pts. minus the group tax = 0.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Capture game
$$ ----------
$$ | O O X X X |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | O O X X X |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | O O X X . |
$$ -----------[/go]


In this case we can count the left side as 0 and the right side as +1. So Black wins, no matter who plays first, as we can verify.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Capture game
$$ ----------
$$ | O O X X X |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | O O X X X |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ -----------[/go]


In this case we can count the left side as -1 and the right side as +1. The total score is 0, so whoever plays first loses, as we can verify.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Capture game
$$ ----------
$$ | O O X X X |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | O O X X . |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ -----------[/go]


In this case we can count the left side as -1 and the right side as +2. The total score is +1, so Black wins, no matter who plays first, as we can verify.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Capture game
$$ ----------
$$ | . O X X X |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | O O X X . |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ -----------[/go]


In this case we can count the left side as -2 and the right side as +2. The total score is 0, so whoever plays first loses, as we can verify.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Capture game
$$ ----------
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | O O X X . |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ -----------[/go]


Finally, in this case we can count the left side as -2 and the right side as +3. The total score is +1, so Black wins, no matter who plays first, as we can verify. :)

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
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My two main guides in life:
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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #113 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:12 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
People have objected to the rule that White must sometimes make a third, obligatory pass. I wrote the text to get over the objection of sometimes having an obligatory pass. Jaeup requires an obligatory pass, not by White, but by the player who did not take the button. Both in his implementation and mine you have to be careful about taking the button and about who passes last.


Sorry, I was talking about Jaeup's implmentation in the message #102 of this discussion. It does not use a physical button:

jaeup wrote:
A player may pass by handing the opponent one stone (called a pass stone) instead of playing a stone on the board. A pass is always legal. Pass stones are added to the opponent's prisoners. The opponent of the player who first passed must make the last move.




Bill Spight wrote:
The 2008 World Mind Sports Games in Beijing implemented Button Go without calling it that. They used area counting, but implemented the button in this way.

WMSG Rules of Go wrote:
There are two types of compensations. The first type depends on who passes first in the game. If White passes first, Black's score is reduced by 1. If Black passes first, no such compensation is given.
The second type of compensation aims to balance the advantage enjoyed by the player who makes the first play. To ensure a fair game, the Black player is asked to deduct an amount from his total points, traditionally known as the komi (tie-xian in Chinese). The amount of komi in this tournament is set to be 6.5 points.
Emphasis mine.


Thank you for the reminder.
I can see in my little sgf file that it reproduces the area button go results with komi = 7.

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Post #114 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:22 am 
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Pio2001 wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
People have objected to the rule that White must sometimes make a third, obligatory pass. I wrote the text to get over the objection of sometimes having an obligatory pass. Jaeup requires an obligatory pass, not by White, but by the player who did not take the button. Both in his implementation and mine you have to be careful about taking the button and about who passes last.


Sorry, I was talking about Jaeup's implmentation in the message #102 of this discussion. It does not use a physical button:

jaeup wrote:
A player may pass by handing the opponent one stone (called a pass stone) instead of playing a stone on the board. A pass is always legal. Pass stones are added to the opponent's prisoners. The opponent of the player who first passed must make the last move.


I was talking about that, too. There is the obligatory pass. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #115 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:54 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Capture game
$$ ----------
$$ | O O X X X |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | O O X X . |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ -----------[/go]


In this case we can count the left side as -1 and the right side as +2. The total score is +1, so Black wins, no matter who plays first, as we can verify.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Capture game
$$ ----------
$$ | . O X X X |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | O O X X . |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ -----------[/go]


In this case we can count the left side as -2 and the right side as +2. The total score is 0, so whoever plays first loses, as we can verify.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Capture game
$$ ----------
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | O O X X . |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ -----------[/go]


Finally, in this case we can count the left side as -2 and the right side as +3. The total score is +1, so Black wins, no matter who plays first, as we can verify.


I guess we CAN verify, but we do HAVE TO verify because we do not have a theorem for territory regions of arbitrary shape and allowing the defender to control by part of a two-eye-formation regardless of the starting player and regardless of the players' choices. Therefore, we must analyse all variations. Everything else is nothing but unproved conjectures.

No-pass-go is not an application of the theorem of numbers of dead stones removals / live stones played.

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Post #116 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:23 am 
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Robert Jasiek wrote:
No-pass-go is not an application of the theorem of numbers of dead stones removals / live stones played.


I have addressed this point, both here and on SL. :) Of the different forms of no pass go, it is no pass go with prisoner return that equates returning a prisoner with playing inside territory. To put it another way, different forms of no pass go have different concepts of territory (unless they do not have one). :)

RobertJasiek wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Capture game
$$ ----------
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | O O X X . |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ -----------[/go]


Finally, in this case we can count the left side as -2 and the right side as +3. The total score is +1, so Black wins, no matter who plays first, as we can verify.


I guess we CAN verify, but we do HAVE TO verify because we do not have a theorem for territory regions of arbitrary shape and allowing the defender to control by part of a two-eye-formation regardless of the starting player and regardless of the players' choices. Therefore, we must analyse all variations. Everything else is nothing but unproved conjectures.


Well, we do not ask beginners to prove theorems. ;) But they can quickly learn these values. In addition:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Capture game
$$ ----------
$$ | O O X X X |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | . O X X X |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | O O X X X |
$$ -----------[/go]


A beginner friend of mine realized, without being told, that Black to play can win this game. :) I could have taught him that the left side is equivalent to a dame, but did not bother. I praised him for finding the seki. :)

So, yes, the isolated 3 point eye is worth a dame. :) But that does not alter the fact that the No Pass Capture Game is a game of territory, albeit a form of territory that is different from that of regular go. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #117 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:53 am 
Tengen

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I realise that I do not know: what is the Capture Game?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 No Pass Baduk
$$ ----------
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ | 4 O O X 2 |
$$ | 5 O X X 1 |
$$ | 6 O O X 3 |
$$ | . O X X . |
$$ -----------[/go]


Why is the lower right eye worth 2 points?

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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #118 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:03 am 
Tengen

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black first
$$ -------------
$$ . O X 2 O X .
$$ . O X 1 O X .
$$ . O X X O X .
$$ . O O O X X .
$$ . . . . . . .[/go]



"If Black plays :b1:, White takes with :w2:, for a score of -10. (I.e., 10 points for White. By convention we take Black's point of view.)

Go Diagram
White first
Click Here To Hide Diagram Code
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White first
$$ -------------
$$ . O X 2 O X .
$$ . O X 1 O X .
$$ . O X X O X .
$$ . O O O X X .
$$ . . . . . . .[/go]


If White plays :w1:, Black takes with :b2:, for a score of +8. "

Again, you claim but do not verify scores.

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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #119 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:12 am 
Tengen

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What is Bill Frazor's fractional territory position and your evaluation of it?

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 Post subject: Re: Yesterday's rule dispute in Korea
Post #120 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:20 am 
Honinbo

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RobertJasiek wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black first
$$ -------------
$$ . O X 2 O X .
$$ . O X 1 O X .
$$ . O X X O X .
$$ . O O O X X .
$$ . . . . . . .[/go]



"If Black plays :b1:, White takes with :w2:, for a score of -10. (I.e., 10 points for White. By convention we take Black's point of view.)

Go Diagram
White first
Click Here To Hide Diagram Code
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White first
$$ -------------
$$ . O X 2 O X .
$$ . O X 1 O X .
$$ . O X X O X .
$$ . O O O X X .
$$ . . . . . . .[/go]


If White plays :w1:, Black takes with :b2:, for a score of +8. "

Again, you claim but do not verify scores.


My audience is one of experienced players. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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