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Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=2601
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Author:  Anzu3 [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

Or isn't it? ><;;

Author:  willemien [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

Anzu3 wrote:
Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf

?Or isn't it? ><;;

what do you mean. (just to not to say NO straight away)

Author:  Magicwand [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

Anzu3 wrote:
Or isn't it? ><;;


they have totally different concept in counting but usually they will yield same result.
there are some instances that will result different outcome but rarely happens.

Author:  Li Kao [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

For most games area and territory scoring differ by at most one point.
The basic idea is that either both players have played the same number of stones(or black one more). So the stones on the board are the same except for prisoners. And since prisoners are subtracted from the score in territory but not area scoring the score of each players is just increased by the number of moves with area-scoring. And since it cancels out in the score difference it doesn't matter.

But for certain situations for example involving points in a seki, or bent four and unremovable ko threats they can yield completely different outcomed.
In handicap games the difference increases by 1 per stones, unless the komi is adjusted to compensate for that, since in area scoring each handicap stone is worth a point.

And of course japanese rules terminate the game if a long repetition cycle, whereas rulesets that use some kind of superko will continue.

Author:  RobertJasiek [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

What does the question want to ask? Which right? Only Chinese and only Japanese or in general Area Scoring versus Territory Scoring? For the moment, I assume your question to mean "Are Area Scoring and Territory Scoring equally good?". Answer:

No. Reasons see http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/advant.html

Author:  Bill Spight [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

Is this our new troll?

Author:  willemien [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

RobertJasiek wrote:
What does the question want to ask? Which right? Only Chinese and only Japanese or in general Area Scoring versus Territory Scoring? For the moment, I assume your question to mean "Are Area Scoring and Territory Scoring equally good?". Answer:

No. Reasons see http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/advant.html


Why don't you mention the Ikeda Area rules 3 I think they are best :D

Author:  RobertJasiek [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

Because I lack time to enhance the webpage.

Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

Bill Spight wrote:
Is this our new troll?


[Admin]
Almost. He is one of our new ex-trolls. I've banned at least 4 of them in the last few days.
[/Admin]

Author:  Bill Spight [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Is this our new troll?


[Admin]
Almost. He is one of our new ex-trolls. I've banned at least 4 of them in the last few days.
[/Admin]


Gee, does this mean that go is becoming more popular? ;)

Or maybe it means that the semester is over. ;)

Author:  xed_over [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

Li Kao wrote:
For most games area and territory scoring differ by at most one point.

for most games, the score doesn't differ at all between area and territory scoring ... but the potential is there.

and when the score does differ, then for most of those games the final outcome remains unchanged.

Author:  RobertJasiek [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

With Standard Area Komi (5.5, 7.5,...), usually also smallest possible scores do not alter the winner.

Author:  phillip1882 [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

in general the score differs by at most 1 point, but there are ways to get it to differ by more.
in particular, if you play in your own territory to unnessicarily prevent invasion, under territory rules, each such move would cost you a point, under area, your score stays the same.

Author:  Magicwand [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

suide rule difference can make it more than 100 point different.

Author:  willemien [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

Magicwand wrote:
suide rule difference can make it more than 100 point different.

I guess you mean a suicide rule?

But neither of the Japanese or the Chinese rule set allows suicide

(the NZRules do aswell as some other more theoretical rules do)

Author:  Magicwand [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

willemien wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
suide rule difference can make it more than 100 point different.

T guess you mean a suicide rule?

But neither of the Japanese or the Japanese rule set allows suicide

(the NZRules do aswell as some other more theoretical rules do)

T

chinese rule allow you to commit suicide rule.

Author:  willemien [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

Magicwand wrote:
willemien wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
suide rule difference can make it more than 100 point different.

T guess you mean a suicide rule?

But neither of the Japanese or the Japanese rule set allows suicide

(the NZRules do aswell as some other more theoretical rules do)

T

chinese rule allow you to commit suicide rule.


As far as i Know the chinese rules don't allow suicide

google translation of http://games.sports.cn/datebase/encyclo ... 46610.html

Quote:
China Go Competition Rules (2002 Edition)
2010-07-19 17:07:00 中国棋院在线 2010-07-19 17:07:00 Chinese Chess Online
...

Article 5 prohibited the point

棋盘上的任何一点,如某方下子后,该子立即呈无气状态,同时又不能提取对方的棋子。
Any point on the board, such as a party erupted after the child was no gas status immediately, while the other pieces can not be extracted.
这个点叫做“禁着点”。
This point is called the "cut the point."
如图二的标记点都是黑方的禁着点。
Figure II Black markers are forbidden the point.



or in a more readable translation on http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/Chinese.html

Quote:
The Chinese Rules of Go
From James Davies,
The Rules of Go, in The Go Player's Almanac,
ed. Richard Bozulich, Ishi Press (San Jose, 1992)
Extracted, adapted, and edited by Fred Hansen

Section 5. Forbidden points
A forbidden point is a point on the board which, if occupied by a player's stone, would leave that stone without liberties, while failing to remove any opposing stones. A player cannot play on a forbidden point. In Diagram 2, the points marked with triangles are all forbidden to plays by Black.




Hm i corrected my mistakes in my original reply but here it is still the old version :)

Author:  antispin [ Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chinese Japanese rules the same right? Win lose wtf?

phillip1882 wrote:
in general the score differs by at most 1 point, but there are ways to get it to differ by more.
in particular, if you play in your own territory to unnessicarily prevent invasion, under territory rules, each such move would cost you a point, under area, your score stays the same.


This is only true at the very end of the game, after the last dame has been filled. Under area scoring, you also lose a point playing unnecessarily in your own territory if there are still any profitable moves left on the board. Because that stone played in your territory could have gained at least one extra point had it been played to expand the area you control (dame included).

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