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| About Go Rules in Korea http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=8919 |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | About Go Rules in Korea |
Quotation reference: viewtopic.php?p=145433#p145433 Magicwand wrote: RobertJasiek wrote: The good news is: just recently, I have discussed about rules with an influential Korean for 3 hours. They are interested not only in Western pairing programs but also in Western input for the sake of correcting their own rules, because they have realised that they cannot solve this problem alone. More later. really??? [...] read what you write and try to figure out why it is wrong. "The good news is" is, of course, a matter of opinion:) "just recently": July 31. "I have discussed about rules with an influential Korean for 3 hours.": correct. "They are interested not only in Western pairing programs": AFAIK, the Korean insei leage is using Christoph Gerlach's MacMahon program. They had invited him to Korea to present his program and motivated him to improve it and create program versions 3.x. I am lacking first hand information on whether the insei league really uses that program, so it is possible that they changed their intentions. Plural ("programs") might be an euphemism. "Western input for the sake of correcting their own rules": correct. More specifically, I have been asked to comment on and make suggestions for improvement on the current Korean Rules of Baduk. "they have realised that they cannot solve this problem alone.": It is an euphemism. Maybe not all of them have realised it yet, but only part of them. However, if only part of them would have realised it, that would be worse for their own reputation about writing their own go rules. Citation from the English translation of the current rules: "all removable stones are dead stones" In particular, this overlooks that capturable stones in nakade and snapback can be alive stones. The Korean 1992 Rules did not make this mistake. Since the Korean go rules are becoming less correct instead of more correct and this at one of the central aspects of the rules (distinction of life and death), the Korean rules authors cannot solve this problem alone (at least not within reasonable time). "They" may have been another euphemism; maybe there are even a few who do not even realise yet that they are making very important, basic mistakes in their own rules and that things are becoming worse for a few central aspects. In my opinion, not even realising such mistakes would be much worse than realising that they cannot solve this problem alone. |
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
RobertJasiek wrote: "they have realised that they cannot solve this problem alone." This implies that among all those millions of Korean go players, there is nobody capable of doing the research and understanding the issues to a sufficient degree to solve the problem. |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
Either this or those (professionals?) having written the current Korean rules have not listened to Korean rules researchers. However, who would that be and what would have been their relevant findings? I know of one Korean having proposed simple (non-Korean) rules. Is there any Korean rules researcher who would try to reinvent ideas along the lines of Takeshi, Gramlich, Pauli or myself? Sheer number of go players in Korea does not substitute required effort for gaining research insight (by experience, many months of more than full time research). There is the one Korean person, with whom I talked, who wants to get an understanding of Western (and in particular my) rules research for the sake of solving the problem. However, understanding of existing research results is very different from doing research on one's own within Korea and reinventing the results, while not knowing, studying and applying the already existing non-Korean research results. (Ignoring foreign results would amount to putting national pride above proceeding to new research beyond the existing foreign research.) The current Korean rules are at a design level similar to the World Amateur Go Championship Rules, i.e., even quite a few of the same old basic mistakes are repeated. http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/wagcflaw.html |
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
I am not talking about what happened in the past, I am specifically interested in why you think it is inherently impossible for Koreans to fix this issue in the future without outside help. What, in your opinion, is wrong with Koreans that makes them unable to do their own research, find their own solutions? |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
- They had cared for well written rules too little. So they are behind a couple of years. - There have been too few studying go (rules) theory with a logical / mathematical approach. Instead, there have been too many interested in maintaining modern Korean rules tradition by means of changing precedental rules exceptions. - Among the very few studying go (rules) theory with a logical / mathematical approach, apparently none invested so great amounts of time that he could have made relevant discoveries in rules theory. - There have been too few studying foreign rules and rules research results. - Too much (for the sake of good go rules) effort was spent on improving go theory for becoming stronger, so that too little effort could remain for improving go rules theory. - Maybe teaching by examples is too popular in Korea; this could have an impact on points mentioned above. - School and work (or a professional's practical go theory study) consume so much time in Korea that too few retain the necessary great amounts of time for serious go rules research. - The Korean rules are the most difficult rules (more difficult than the Japanese rules), so it is even harder to attack writing a good rules description for them. EDIT: Koreans might acquire the same skills, but this takes time and much more time is needed to do the research then. So I think that they can do little on their own during the next years. Koreans cannot discover many new, important rules findings (for the sake of explaining their own rules), because the most relevant things have already been found. Life and death is the same, regardless of who discovers their definitions. So, in this respect, Koreans can only rediscover what is already discovered. (There is a principle chance that they might be faster at defining ko threat (which is important in Korean rules), but this is especially improbable considering the mess about ko threat rules they created thus far. It requires an open mind researching independently of the rules. That I have done the preliminary work by defining ko and now am having to little time to define ko threat gives a Korean with an open mind a chance though. However, there are others with greater chances, such as Bill, because he has the necessary education and research experience. Does he also have the IMO necessary 5000 hours of time?:)) |
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
Well, mostly stuff about the past again. And still no real answer to the core question: What is it about Koreans that makes them unable to do this? What difference between Koreans and non-Koreans makes it so that Koreans cannot solve rules issues, but non-Koreans can? |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
I think what Robert is getting at is that they are perfectly capable of spending time doing the same work and coming up with equally valid results, but that there's no point in reinventing the wheel. |
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
skydyr wrote: I think what Robert is getting at is that they are perfectly capable of spending time doing the same work and coming up with equally valid results, but that there's no point in reinventing the wheel. Perhaps? I don't know. That's why I am asking him to clarify. At the moment, I don't really see how to interpret "they cannot solve this problem alone" as meaning "they are perfectly capable of spending time doing the same work and coming up with equally valid results". |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
HermanHiddema wrote: What is it about Koreans that makes them unable to do this? What difference between Koreans and non-Koreans makes it so that Koreans cannot solve rules issues, but non-Koreans can? It is not a principle inability by Koreans but a combination of circumstances that let it be very unlikely that one or a few Koreans can emerge with the necessary research skill and energy to spend the necessary thousands of hours on research specific for go rules theory. Go rules research is not like "Uh, let me solve this problem within a few hours!", but is like "If I solve it in less than 5000 hours, I would be more than lucky.". In fact, IMO, relevant, important research is not available for everybody but requires very much time of gaining research knowledge and experience. So much time that - at the moment - I find it unlikely for a Korean WRT go rules. skydyr, yes, not wasting time on reinventing the wheel is another factor. |
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| Author: | Splatted [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
HermanHiddema wrote: At the moment, I don't really see how to interpret "they cannot solve this problem alone" as meaning "they are perfectly capable of spending time doing the same work and coming up with equally valid results". If someone doesn't know how to do something it's pretty normal to say that they can't do it even though they're capable of learning. I don't think Robert meant to imply anything more than that his research and personal expertise is currently ahead of theirs. |
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
Splatted wrote: If someone doesn't know how to do something it's pretty normal to say that they can't do it even though they're capable of learning. I don't think Robert meant to imply anything more than that his research and personal expertise is currently ahead of theirs. Well, he has since clarified that he does in fact consider it unlikely at the moment that any Korean could learn. |
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| Author: | tchan001 [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
It would make sense that Koreans cannot do it alone if RJ views Koreans as being unwilling to put in the time and effort to recreate the studies necessary to reach the Western level of Go Rules Theory (whatever that is cause I have no idea about Go Rules Theory in general). I mean if you try to teach someone how to do something but he just doesn't want to do it or want to learn how to do it, it just won't happen spontaneously. |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
HermanHiddema wrote: he has since clarified that he does in fact consider it unlikely at the moment that any Korean could learn. Wrong. It is about learning sufficient research skill and knowledge FAST ENOUGH to produce relevant and important go rules research results AT THE MOMENT or in the very near future. Research requires preliminary education to reach a sufficient level, and then requires much specific effort on some particular topic(s). |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
HermanHiddema wrote: Splatted wrote: If someone doesn't know how to do something it's pretty normal to say that they can't do it even though they're capable of learning. I don't think Robert meant to imply anything more than that his research and personal expertise is currently ahead of theirs. Well, he has since clarified that he does in fact consider it unlikely at the moment that any Korean could learn. |
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| Author: | snorri [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
This thread makes it sound like refining uranium. "Well, they are years away and would need external expertise..." |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
That's because they use uranium and plutonium in their rules. The "uranium" is the difficult to grasp, but already explained by foreigners stuff (such as definition of life and locally). The "plutonium" is the even more difficult to grasp, not yet explained stuff (such as "ko threat", where a trivial "play in between ko captures" would not be good enough explanation). |
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| Author: | jts [ Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
I hope once this problem is cleared up the Koreans can reach the level of German go. |
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
hyperpape wrote: It almost feels like you're being deliberately obtuse. I get that there might be a way to misread Robert's comment in a way that's obnoxious, but it didn't even momentarily occur to me (in spite of Robert's tendency to make claims I find grandiose), and I don't think it's the most ordinary reading. Yes, I am being deliberately obtuse, because experience teaches that it is not a good idea to just assume Robert means anything else than a strict literal reading of what he writes. So I just assume nothing and ask for clarification. Anyway, in my opinion it is good to clear up what Robert meant, because his comment already caused offense to at least one Korean player. |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
Concerning the mentioned many millions of Korean players, I wonder whether they all or least a few of them cry and complain about apparently the professionals' 20 kyu mistake to let the Korean rules contradict basic go theory and identify nakade stones as dead, because they are removable. |
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| Author: | MJK [ Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: About Go Rules in Korea |
RobertJasiek wrote: Concerning the mentioned many millions of Korean players, I wonder whether they all or least a few of them cry and complain about apparently the professionals' 20 kyu mistake to let the Korean rules contradict basic go theory and identify nakade stones as dead, because they are removable. What the problem with the quoted diagram? Simply black is dead; any pro must agree. I don't know if the current Korean rules say the white stones are also dead. However, it doesn't matter at all to the result, I mean the scoring. |
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