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 Post subject: Re: How to celebrate new years as a SDK.
Post #21 Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:31 pm 
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60 321Go puzzles left. Should finnish tomorrow.
10/100 games played.

Going to the university Go club tomorrow so will play my first OTB game of go. Am very exited.

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Last edited by SinK on Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #22 Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:32 pm 
Gosei
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SinK wrote:
Going to the university Go club tomorrow so will play my first OTB game of go. Am very exited.


Eager to hear how it goes! Have fun!

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Post #23 Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:36 pm 
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Completely forgot about Go club but played this very close game online to make up for my ditziness.
[sgf-full]http://files.gokgs.com/games/2010/10/13/S1NK-kuramo.sgf[/sgf-full]

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 Post subject: Re: How to celebrate new years as a SDK.
Post #24 Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:16 pm 
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Let's see what we can see ... I see you're white.

8: Black has given you a choice of which corner you want to defend first. Very thoughtful! :mrgreen: Looking at the board, there's only one corner in which your opponent's stone is "touching" your stone ... the lower left (your 3-3). As a general rule, you should consider always responding to a diagonal touch like this. This type of touch is known as a Shoulder Hit.

10: This should be at either C4 or D3, I think

30: I think this is a little awkward, leaving a lot of cuts for Black to take advantage of. Maybe play J8 instead and keep solid for at least one more push.

76: I would consider playing the other hane, at R3, instead to protect the corner.

82: D17 is slightly bigger and leaves less weakness for Black to press you down with.

98: This is not necessary. Try to read out both cuts. Black can't do anything.

End of Game: D16 (you knew that :) )

That's my quick glance at the game. Hope it helps a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: How to celebrate new years as a SDK.
Post #25 Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:12 pm 
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Let's have a look! Edit: I see that Marcus already spoke to a lot of points, so I'll just comment on one or two.

6: I don't think I'd often tenuki an approach on a 3-4 stone, but it's not entirely unreasonable.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position at move 7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, here's a good look at the priorities of different approaches. The top right is all stable and fine, so we can call it lowest priority. We see the rest are approaches on a 3-3, 3-4, and 4-4 stone.

From here, Marcus makes a great point. The closer the approach, the more urgent the response. If your opponent touches your stone (diagonals count), it tends to be super-urgent to respond. For this reason, this corner is the most urgent.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Position at move 7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 2 . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is a standard continuation that ends with both groups mostly stable. Here, you have a chance to take sente! Now, however, we're back to a question of priorities. We know that the top right is fine for the moment. That leaves us with an approach on a 3-4 or an approach on a 4-4. In general, balanced corners are lower priorities. By this, I mean that, all other things being even, it is bigger to approach a 3-4 in the first place than it is to approach a 4-4. Similarly, the followup seems to be better, as well. Because the 3-4 is really hemmed in by the approaching stone, let's do something to fight back. We could attach underneath at E17, taking the corner and giving black some thickness. That would look like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Position at move 7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X 4 . . . 6 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However, black would then have influence facing his influence to the south, in addition to making a huge framework on top. That means that black would have a lot of strength for any fighting coming up, not to mention further scary framework potential. Because of that, let's find something else to do. Black's top side looks like it is way too big in this diagram, so how can we break it up? Pincer, and take it for ourselves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Position at move 7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After all of this, the issue of corner priority has been solved. Whoever gets to take sente after the pincer fight will jump to deal with the only urgent corner: the bottom right.

I know this whole topic of corner priority has gone much deeper than intended, so if you have any questions, feel free to ask.

I'll just point at a few other moves.

19: This is only worth playing if you are afraid of the cut you are preventing. However, if white plays at E5, his cutting stone dies in a ladder. Can you see the ladder now? If a cut cannot possibly work for your opponent in the forseeable future, you probably don't need to worry about it yet. As an alternative, consider this: you just built a large wall. You urgently want to extend from that wall, and your opponent wants to play halfway to the wall to reduce its power. Stopping to cut let your opponent counter the wall. Instead of defending, if you play O3 or even N3, it comes as a terrifying combination of things: an extension from a large wall, and a double-approach on a weak corner.

I'm going to cut it here, since Marcus did a good job at pointing out big things. Good luck!

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Post #26 Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:44 pm 
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Thank you guys. Good stuff, I feel like a better player already.

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Post #27 Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:45 am 
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13/100 games.

Weird game. I had no clue what to do about the massive territory on the left.

[sgf-full]http://files.gokgs.com/games/2010/10/14/barisors-S1NK.sgf[/sgf-full]

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 Post subject: Re: How to celebrate new years as a SDK.
Post #28 Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:42 am 
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Just a short one, probably:

7: You're extending in the primary direction from a complete enclosure. I'd go all the way to F3. While you could be pincered, white has more to worry about than you do.

13: Two options: Either try to make a massive moyo below by playing this high, or (my preference) prevent white's ideal double-wing enclosure extension on the top by taking something like K17. After that, white has a big left side, but it's reducable and you have every bit as much elsewhere.

41: Your opponent just played a ladder-breaker, but it's a bad ladder-breaker because it's a weak stone that you can attack later. Just capture the laddered stones now, while you can, to ensure your profit.

101: This area is only ever going to be one eye, as if your opponent closes it off, you can always reduce it to one, later. So this move is unnecessary, regardless. And obviously, as you learn in a moment, you needed to play it at Q12 to keep the stones dead. Actually, connecting makes it so that you can connect at the other side when O15 is played.

If it helps, if you'd seen that snapback and prevented it, it looks like B+R =) Good game overall, just a simple mistake caused the loss. Have to run, but I hope the few brief comments helped.

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Post #29 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:30 am 
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All 321Go puzzles done except this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White to play and win the capturing race
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . X O O . . . . .
$$ | . X X O X . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . X . . .
$$ | . . X . X . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


I haven't been able to solve it even by trial and error. Hints are great but put solutions in spoiler tags.

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Post #30 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:08 am 
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Solution, I think:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play and win the capturing race
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . X O O . . . . .
$$ | 3 X X O X . . . .
$$ | 5 O O X . . . . .
$$ | 1 4 O X . X . . .
$$ | . 2 X . X . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


Writing hints is hard. I don't want to give away too much. Here's something vague. :)

Hint #1: The first move threatens something other than capturing the Black stones.

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Post #31 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:15 am 
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Well, I'm not very much stronger than you, but I think I've solved this. (And have just seen Marcus' solution, which I am happy to report is the same as mine.) For a hint, I would say the following:

You're clearly 1 liberty short to do this by the direct route (take away one of your opponents' liberties), so the usual next thing to think of is either to increase one's own liberties, or to do so indirectly by making it so that one's opponent needs an extra (approach) move before he can capture you. Once you've come up with a plausible move of this type, it becomes just a reading exercise (not too hard a one, but my reading isn't that great so it still took me a little while to check).

By the way, as it's my first post in this thread - good luck in your goal; I have set myself the same goal (looks like we started playing at the same sort of time), but unlike you I don't have a set study plan for it. I'm sure you can achieve it :tmbup:

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Post #32 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:02 am 
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Thanks for the hints. Managed to find the move Marcus' solution was correct. That's 321Go done. I guess I'll crack open the GGPFB books over the weekend.

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Post #33 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:36 am 
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Felt utterly lost from about move 10 onwards. My opponent managed to make the board an absolute mess and beat me in every fight that came out of that chaos.

[sgf-full]http://files.gokgs.com/games/2010/10/15/suna2002-S1NK.sgf[/sgf-full]

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Post #34 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:24 am 
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You are definitely getting better. :) Just a few comments below.

White's moves are not typical of course, but probably a playable strategy in a handi game. In the opening, white makes a few looks, 3-space jumps. When you see that, don't be afraid to attack where you are strong.

14 - I think making a base and protecting the corner straight away may be better here. Once your stones have a base, you can attack white's F3 stones. You aren't splitting white with this move, so it probably just makes him stronger.

20 - A good move, and you understandably don't want to let W keep pushing you around. But your D4 stones aren't settled yet; I think C3 is more important here.

26 - W is keeping things complicated. Just take the corner with B17 and settle your group. Your corner would be pretty big.

42 - I like the attitude of this move. Granted, I wish Q4 was a bit stronger. Still, I like black in this fight.

46 - Very, VERY common mistake, even among 9kyus or so. Remember: When white invades the 3-3 after playing the approach move at R6, simply extend (here, P4)--don't hane.

90 - Yes, we've all done this in a life and death problem - you aren't starting a ko, of course, unless you already have a black stone at T10 :).

138 - Of course you know bad things happened here. But check out the shape. When you see the "elephant eye" shape with B5 and D7, connect.


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Post #35 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:43 am 
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judicata wrote:
46 - Very, VERY common mistake, even among 9kyus or so. Remember: When white invades the 3-3 after playing the approach move at R6, simply extend (here, P4)--don't hane.


Is this always the case or just here where his cutting stone is supported? I've been playing pretty much this joseki since I started:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 8 played at a or b depending on surrounding stones
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . .
$$ | . a 1 3 4 6 . . .
$$ | . . . . 5 7 b . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


I'm pretty sure I got this from sensei's library but I've always been concerned with how cuttable the move at b and how a allows extension with 9 at b. What should I be thinking before I play 4?

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Post #36 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:57 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black then plays a
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . 8 0 . . . . . .
$$ | . 7 4 O 6 . . . .
$$ | . 9 3 5 . a . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]




If there is no approach stone there, then this

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 0 . . . . . .
$$ | . 9 2 O . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 3 4 6 8 . .
$$ | . . . . 5 7 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


and finishes like this


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O O . . . . .
$$ | . 1 X X O O O . .
$$ | . . . . X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]

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Post #37 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:03 pm 
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SinK wrote:
judicata wrote:
46 - Very, VERY common mistake, even among 9kyus or so. Remember: When white invades the 3-3 after playing the approach move at R6, simply extend (here, P4)--don't hane.


Is this always the case or just here where his cutting stone is supported? I've been playing pretty much this joseki since I started:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 8 played at a or b depending on surrounding stones
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . .
$$ | . a 1 3 4 6 c . .
$$ | . . . . 5 7 b . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


I'm pretty sure I got this from sensei's library but I've always been concerned with how cuttable the move at b and how a allows extension with 9 at b. What should I be thinking before I play 4?



That's right - I should've used a diagram, but didn't have time. That is what I meant by the invasion "after playing the approach move." If there's no approach move, the hane at 4 is often best.

EDIT: And what move at b? You're right - there is a potentially bad cut if white plays at b. In the diagram, white should extend to c (I modified your diagram). If black then extends to b (usually a mistake) white should happily let black keep crawling on the second line, while white gets nice and thick. White shouldn't worry about playing 'a' for now.


Last edited by judicata on Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #38 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:07 pm 
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Edit: Darn, Red beat me to it. Well, I'm going to go ahead and post mine too, as it goes into slightly more explanation of the ideas.
Edit edit: Okay, Judicata also beat me to it. I type like molasses. And molasses uses hunt&peck...
First, a reminder: these, because of the nature of joseki, are not the only way to deal with the invasion. This is just the simplest way, which is why it's nice to look at them and try to understand why they work.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc When supported
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . B a . . . . .
$$ | . 6 8 . . . b . .
$$ | . 5 2 O 4 . . . .
$$ | . 7 1 3 C 9 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]

When your opponent has the :bc: stone, 4 is important (as opposed to playing the circled hane). Otherwise, you're a bit low on liberties, and cuts can start a big fight that may potentially be really bad for you. After this sequence, 'a' and 'b' are common followups. 'a' helps stability and safety, while 'b' is wider in scale and threatens to attach to the right of 9, which goes a long way towards sealing black into the corner entirely.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc When unsupported
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a . . . . . .
$$ | . 8 . . . . . . .
$$ | . 7 O O . . . . .
$$ | . 9 X 1 2 4 6 . .
$$ | . . . . 3 5 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


First, 'a' is required (or something like it), I just ran out of numbers. Here, because the trapped black doesn't have support outside, you have enough liberties to hane. As far as 4 and 6 go, they're very important, or else black could get up and out. Additionally, the wall you build with 4 and 6 is FAR more useful than the two points gained by 3 and 5 (black just needs the eyespace). As a result, if black wants to keep pushing on the second long, definitely keep pushing ahead.

I recommend you take a board, and play these out a couple of times in a row. Look at the alternatives, and try to understand why each move is played where it is, instead of elsewhere. If you can't figure out specific moves, feel free to ask here. Later tonight or tomorrow, try it again from memory. If you can't remember the moves, try it again from the beginning. While I'm not big on memorizing joseki, this is one of very few that I forced myself to ingrain, and I don't regret it. In addition to making sure you don't frutratingly lose every other invasion you attempt, it's a nice start for understanding corner life and death problems. If you understand , for example, that black takes 5 in the second diagram so that white cannot get it in sente, you can recognize similar situations, and perhaps get a few extra sente moves.

Here's a homework assignment for you. Set up the first diagram on a board, or picture it in your head. As I said, white protects at 'a'. Why there, instead of defending the cut at E4? Either that cut isn't scary, or the stone at 'a' defends both cuts. Can you figure out how to shut down a cut at E4 after the joseki? Here's your hint:
The answer begins with responding at F5... [edit: Shaddy's right, a simpler/better solution starts at E5. Can you find both?]

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Last edited by Chew Terr on Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: How to celebrate new years as a SDK.
Post #39 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:14 pm 
Lives in sente
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for chew (and anyone else who doesn't want to solve his problem):

the solution usually given is e5, not f5. f5 works but i believe the aji is slightly worse.

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 Post subject: Re: How to celebrate new years as a SDK.
Post #40 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:26 pm 
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Shaddy:
Thanks, I had forgotten/didn't stop to check that that works also( and better). I think my variation just stuck in my head, aji and all, because it looked so stylish to me the first time I saw it.

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