A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs

Kaya.gs · **#101**

snorri wrote:

Kaya.gs wrote:

One thing im talking with my partner about the rating system which we will try is the following: "14 victories gives you a rank up". These is something that happens with some club-rating systems like in the Nihon-kiin.
This means that we would always adjust the strength difference of any game, so if a weak 5d plays a strong 5d, there will a difference in komi. It is a more granular way to handle the rating system, and also a very predictable one. Each game you play is basically worth the same.

You have some pretty good ideas, so I think I'll contribute despite being thrown off a bit by Patricio's musketeer-style facial hair. (But hey, if we all liked the same things the world would be a pretty boring place. We're lucky enough that we all like go.

Truthfully, you had me at Fischer time. Finally, a real-time go server with that will be a good thing.

I think you're right about the advantages and disadvantages of the KGS rating system, but getting the right solution is a bit of a challenge. Maybe only experience will show whether your system is better. As for incremental komi, I'm not fan. When IGS switched to the +/no plus system with two ratings per stone, it got more transparent (and theoretically more correct), but I would often forget that I might be giving or taking reverse komi if I wasn't paying attention to who had a '+'. Komi that might appear to the player to be any random half-integer between -7.5 and 7.5 would be even harder to think about. So if you are going to do this, two suggestions:

1. Allow players to choose to play other komi and handicap than the defaults chosen based on rating difference.
2. Make the komi and rules very visible while playing the game. Having to select a menu item is too much indirection to check these values.
3. You may want to research whether this granularity really buys you any accuracy. For example, if you are allowing rated games with more than 1 stone handicap and you are also using small komi adjustments, it would appear that you are claiming to know precise komi equivalents for handicap stones. Although there is a little data on this, the real values are not known. It's fake precision, like quoting someone's height to 6 decimal places. Even if you do gain something, you lose something else in that new players will be confused and say, "What? 2.5 points reverse komi? Who does that?"

Good luck!

Polly's mustache is the #1 reason people support Kaya.gs .

As i said before, rating is something to be discussed very openly about. I am not a master of the different systems and there are too many options. When its time i will thread it.

I must mention the reverse-komi and such.

1 stone handicap has a the value of 2 komis.

I explain very shortly so i dont thread-jack myself.

a) If A and B play, of equal strength, and there is no komi, A wins by komi.
b) If A passes ,then B plays, now, B wins by komi.

So the difference betwen one starting and other starting is 2 komis. Of course , reality is more messy: 2h stones have some sinergy, so u cant apply the same value, but i think we can cautiously accept that.
That messines gets much bigger with more handicap, 6h stones have a combined value much greater than the value of each individual stone.

The granularity doesnt really add to precision, it adds to the value of each game you play related to your rating.
In Wbaduk, you need to win 10 games for the last 100 points, but only 1 or 2 suffice for the first 300. In kgs is similar, a strong 5d has to beat a weak five than 7/10 to rank up, and he does so slowly. However, if the strong 5d had no komi ,or there was slight reverse komi, winning that game would be worth just as much.

As i said before, a stone is worth 2 komis, so you have granularity to the 13/14 point based system you pick.

That said, such a point system is very plain, and lacks some sophistication. The reason why i didnt open the thread already is because i want to outline the exact issues i want to avoid (heavy accounts, irrantional number of games, psychological effects, etc).

Its an interesting, long, then boring subject

. The feedback im getting from the community is very encouraging, not only from the fund-raising but on the information, hand-labour and overall help.

palapiku · **#102**

Why not just call it Kaya rather than Kaya.gs? You're almost intentionally going for a name clash with KGS. Also ".gs" looks pretty weird.

malweth · **#103**

http://kaya.gs/

Kaya.gs · **#104**

palapiku wrote:

Why not just call it Kaya rather than Kaya.gs? You're almost intentionally going for a name clash with KGS. Also ".gs" looks pretty weird.

I invite you to reserve the kaya.com domain, then pass it on to me.

Naming it so makes it easier to find the website

. Plus come on, Kaya.gs rocks. Very web 2.0.

wms · **#105**

Something I've learned about rating systems: A rating system based on anything like "14 wins to go up a rank" will do a decent job of grouping players of similar strength as long as the set of plays has good overall connectivity between arbitrary groups of players, but it will do an extremely poor job of predicting the proper handicaps beyond 1 stone. This may or may not matter to you, many people don't expect high handicap games to be close.

Another flaw with such a system is that if there are groups of people who mostly play each other (ie, whose games have poor connectivity to the rest of the population), their ranks can fairly quickly drift away from the rest of the server so that they become unintentional sandbaggers or unintentionally overrated.

wms · **#106**

Kaya.gs wrote:

palapiku wrote:

Why not just call it Kaya rather than Kaya.gs? You're almost intentionally going for a name clash with KGS. Also ".gs" looks pretty weird.

I invite you to reserve the kaya.com domain, then pass it on to me.

Naming it so makes it easier to find the website

. Plus come on, Kaya.gs rocks. Very web 2.0.

Oh, I can't believe it took me this long to notice, but kaya go server and kaya.gs are very close as an acronym to the K Go Server/KGS.

Please, please, please choose a name less likely to cause confusion. Changing the first word of the server name from "K" to "Kaya" is much too close. I would never have named KGS anything that shared an acronym with an existing server.

Kaya.gs · **#107**

wms wrote:

Kaya.gs wrote:

palapiku wrote:

Why not just call it Kaya rather than Kaya.gs? You're almost intentionally going for a name clash with KGS. Also ".gs" looks pretty weird.

I invite you to reserve the kaya.com domain, then pass it on to me.

Naming it so makes it easier to find the website

. Plus come on, Kaya.gs rocks. Very web 2.0.

Oh, I can't believe it took me this long to notice, but kaya go server and kaya.gs are very close as an acronym to the K Go Server/KGS.

Please, please, please choose a name less likely to cause confusion. Changing the first word of the server name from "K" to "Kaya" is much too close. I would never have named KGS anything that shared an acronym with an existing server.

As far as the name goes, we were first going to be called zen.gs, to prevent this very potential confusion. We also went around BGS (Browser Go Server).

Between what we liked and domain restrictions, and logo, and so on, we decided on Kaya. For those that dont know, Kaya is the tree used to make Gobans.

The fact that it took you a while to notice is because we never wrote or meant Kaya.gs to be named as an acronym or anything else. Actually saying just Kaya is shorter than the confusing acronym.

We kept the .gs on the name, so people wouldnt try kaya.com, which we dont own. I believe , wms, that we wont have any issue or confusion at hand, people will naturally call KGS KGS, and Kaya.gs either Kaya or Kaya.gs. The dis-ambiguation will be obvious.

daniel_the_smith · **#108**

A suggestion, then: Don't call it "Kaya Go Server" on your webpage. Make it "Kaya.gs: play go online" or some such. Otherwise, people are bound to start abbreviating you as KGS, too.

Also, "__GS" is way overused by go servers...

wms · **#109**

I agree that kaya is a great name, and thank you for never abbreviating away the "kaya". But abbreviations happen, and I would feel more comfortable if you got any other TLD. A bunch more will open up, Something like "kaya.game," for example, might be possible before too long, and that of course will eliminate any chance of confusion.

Edit: I wonder if "k.gs" is available. Wouldn't that be cool!

Edit #2: Damn, you must have three letters at least before the ".gs". So much for that.

judicata · **#110**

This is not my project, of course, but I was trying to brainstorm for something other than "Go Server," because I like the Kaya name (and I like the complimentary aesthetic/feel the website currently has), and something other than "go server" might convey the broader goal of the project. But I couldn't think of anything good

, otherwise I would (humbly) offer suggestions for your consideration.

Since "Kaya" is so short (only one letter longer than "KGS"), people may just stick to "Kaya." Even so, if the name is "Kaya Go Server," I can definitely see newcomers getting confused.

For my part, I love KGS, and that isn't likely to change.

But I also spend some time on other servers, and I may well abandon those after this project gets running.

Chew Terr · **#111**

judicata wrote:

For my part, I love KGS, and that isn't likely to change.

But I also spend some time on other servers, and I may well abandon those after this project gets running.

My sentiments exactly. Regarding naming, I have thought since the beginning that the inevitable 'KGS' shortening of Kaya.gs is the most unfortunate thing I've heard about the server (really, the only unfortunate bit). I don't know what name to recommend, now that the domain name is purchased and such, but it's not what I'd call ideal.

LocoRon · **#112**

judicata wrote:

This is not my project, of course, but I was trying to brainstorm for something other than "Go Server," because I like the Kaya name (and I like the complimentary aesthetic/feel the website currently has), and something other than "go server" might convey the broader goal of the project. But I couldn't think of anything good

Reading this, the first thing that came to mind was "go center," however, according to this wikipedia list of TLD's, there isn't currently a .gc TLD, so that wouldn't work. Looking at the list of avaible .g_ domains, a few other possibilities came to mind, but mostly things I wouldn't want to repeat (for shame). The best of the bunch is "go lounge" (with a .gl TLD).

"go server" is just so natural, though. :/

Kaya.gs · **#113**

daniel_the_smith wrote:

A suggestion, then: Don't call it "Kaya Go Server" on your webpage. Make it "Kaya.gs: play go online" or some such. Otherwise, people are bound to start abbreviating you as KGS, too.

Also, "__GS" is way overused by go servers...

I whole-heartedly agree. Polly is changing it right now. That logo was done quite a while a go, and was meant to be low-profile, as it will probably change in the near future

.

Edit: fixed

check it out.

wms wrote:

Edit: I wonder if "k.gs" is available. Wouldn't that be cool!

I was very dissapointed to find bgs.com was a lawering firm, and variations of zen--.gs sold tea.

The difference in availability on .gs is astounding compared to the overly-saturated .com. I think many spin-offs from the server that wish smaller domains will do similar stuff.

The problem with absolutely free domains (kaya.game) is that its a total steal. U have to pay 100s of thousands to get them.
It seems that those that makes the rule noted people making money on cybersquatting, and chose to make the biggest steal themselves -.-.

palapiku · **#114**

Kaya.gs wrote:

palapiku wrote:

Why not just call it Kaya rather than Kaya.gs? You're almost intentionally going for a name clash with KGS. Also ".gs" looks pretty weird.

I invite you to reserve the kaya.com domain, then pass it on to me.

Naming it so makes it easier to find the website

. Plus come on, Kaya.gs rocks. Very web 2.0.

Well, KGS is not on KGS.com, and people don't seem to have a trouble finding it. And even if it were on KGS.com, it's still named KGS and not KGS.com.

And you're right, "Kaya.gs" is extremely web 2.0. To the point that I would be embarrassed to pronounce it in spoken conversation. Really, "I played some go yesterday on kaya-dot-gee-ess"?

mw42 · **#115**

It seems disrespectful to choose a name for your server that is similar to an existing one. Not only that but to also use that same server to advertise your new server heavily.

palapiku wrote:

Well, KGS is not on KGS.com, and people don't seem to have a trouble finding it. And even if it were on KGS.com, it's still named KGS and not KGS.com.

That's part of the problem, isn't it? I know when I first heard of "KGS" I googled it to find the website. Now, if kaya.gs starts to build steam it is likely a search for "KGS" might result in both KGS and kaya.gs coming up as top results. Don't you think this would damage word-of-mouth advertising as, no matter what, mentioning KGS will also bring up kaya.gs? It seems like the creators of kaya.gs might be trying to piggyback on the popularity of KGS (twice, by advertising on it and having a name similar to it).

amnal · **#116**

palapiku wrote:

Kaya.gs wrote:

palapiku wrote:

Why not just call it Kaya rather than Kaya.gs? You're almost intentionally going for a name clash with KGS. Also ".gs" looks pretty weird.

I invite you to reserve the kaya.com domain, then pass it on to me.

Naming it so makes it easier to find the website

. Plus come on, Kaya.gs rocks. Very web 2.0.

Well, KGS is not on KGS.com, and people don't seem to have a trouble finding it. And even if it were on KGS.com, it's still named KGS and not KGS.com.

And you're right, "Kaya.gs" is extremely web 2.0. To the point that I would be embarrassed to pronounce it in spoken conversation. Really, "I played some go yesterday on kaya-dot-gee-ess"?

I expect I would refer to it as the Kaya Go Server, or just Kaya if the meaning was clear from context. I suspect most other people would do the same.

Kaya.gs · **#117**

Lets settle this topic the Kaya.gs way. You guys can get into the site and add the suggestion on the feedback tab, and people will vote on it. If people want it we will consider making an adjustment. Comments there are easier to track and relate than this big thread that treats many different aspects of the project.

So voice your opinions http://kaya.gs!

I appreciate all your feedback, specially WMS for being so respectful in a request that could be so easily be misunderstood.

I hope to learn a lot from him and from KGS and his input will be very valuable to us.

Note that our objective in this phase of the project is getting as much support as we can so we can develop the best first version we can do. And we want to involve the community right from the start, giving supporters the opportunity to be recognized for their support and the faith they put on us.

So again, as posted in the beginning, if you want to believe in this project and want to participate in helping it grow, help us either with support, by telling other people or any other way you want.

danielm · **#118**

People can be so petty.

"Kaya", "the Kaya server", and even "kaya gee ess" work perfectly fine in spoken conversation. Kaya is faster to pronounce than "KGS". Kaya is also about as fast to type as KGS. There is no need for an acronym. Other servers need acronyms because they have no sensible names. "Internet Go Server"? How do you shorten that. Same for online-go.com, etc. KGS once stood for "Kiseido Go Server", didn't it? This is still not so helpful because it's "the go server by Kiseido", not "the go server called Kiseido", so you couldn't just call it "Kiseido" either. Now it seems that KGS is a recursive acronym (as the website calls it "The KGS Go Server". Basically, the "acronyms" have become the normal names of these servers.

On the other hand, who uses an acronym for Tygem, or WBaduk? Those servers have sensible, unique, and reasonably short names, so there is no need for an acronym. Same for Kaya. Sure, as the name of a wood it is not _that_ unique, but still rare enough to stand on its own most of the time based on context. When required, it is easy to specify by adding the domain extension.

There is also no chance whatsoever that Google is going to confuse KGS with Kaya.gs. If you expect this, you really don't give Google enough credit for their algorithms. The only way this could even be remotely possible is if KGS would disappear into complete obscurity, but if that were to happen, it wouldn't be Kaya piggy-backing on KGS' popularity, but the other way around.

And even if some newbie would be to make the mistake of calling it KGS once or twice, you can be sure that he would quickly stand corrected, as the real KGS is not likely to disappear from the public consciousness anytime soon.

Kaya.gs is a fine name, one that sounds a lot more harmonious than all of the alternatives that have been suggested so far. Let's not be petty about the initial letter.

mw42 · **#119**

Quote:

People can be so petty.

I don't think the time and effort put into making KGS popular is trivial.

Quote:

There is also no chance whatsoever that Google is going to confuse KGS with Kaya.gs.

This is assuming people don't start abbreviating it KGS. Aside from your assurances, this remains to be seen. Unfortunately, if it occurs it will then be too late to change it.

Solomon · **#120**

danielm wrote:

Other servers need acronyms because they have no sensible names.

Battle.net, an online gaming server, is perfectly sensible, but most people call it "Bnet" (so much so that googling Bnet returns Battle.net over BNET, a CBS business network).

Battle.net => Bnet
Kaya.gs => Kgs

danielm wrote:

On the other hand, who uses an acronym for Tygem, or WBaduk? Those servers have sensible, unique, and reasonably short names, so there is no need for an acronym. Same for Kaya. Sure, as the name of a wood it is not _that_ unique, but still rare enough to stand on its own most of the time based on context. When required, it is easy to specify by adding the domain extension.

2chan, a Japanese imageboard, is sensible, unique, and just as short, but people still abbreviate it as "2ch".

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