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2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=536 |
Page 3 of 9 |
Author: | Jedo [ Mon May 24, 2010 9:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
Me and Nikolas will be breaking our 1-1 tie tuesday night at 9:15 est. |
Author: | Aphelion [ Tue May 25, 2010 11:52 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
Padic and I played our first Round 2 game today. I took Black and Padic held the White stones. Result is B+R. I lead our series 1-0, and game 2 will be tomorrow 19:00 CEST |
Author: | Shaddy [ Tue May 25, 2010 7:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
review of nik-jedo 3, with interspersed comments [sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2] RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]TM[1800]OT[5x60 byo-yomi] PW[Jedo]PB[Nikolas73]WR[4k]BR[5k]DT[2010-05-26]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Nikolas73 [5k\]: Have a good game. Shadonra [1d\]: he's gone Nikolas73 [5k\]: err, I'll ask him later I guess. ]RE[B+Resign] ;B[pd]BL[1792.67]C[Jedo [4k\]: have a good game ] ;W[pp]WL[1791.974] ;B[dd]BL[1788.649] ;W[dp]WL[1779.791] ;B[jd]BL[1786.99] ;W[qf]WL[1774.932] ;B[of]BL[1782.176]C[Shadonra [1d\]: it's a trap ] ;W[qi]WL[1763.899] (;B[dj]BL[1775.312] ;W[jp]WL[1751.04] ;B[qn]BL[1757.971]C[Shadonra [1d\]: i'd rather play c6 Shadonra [1d\]: this is ok too, i guess ] ;W[qo]WL[1728.673] ;B[pn]BL[1749.912] ;W[np]WL[1725.735] ;B[qk]BL[1746.009] ;W[oi]WL[1708.792] ;B[ok]BL[1729.862] ;W[cl]WL[1699.617]C[Shadonra [1d\]: good ] (;B[cj]BL[1720.084]C[Nikolas73 [5k\]: I didn't want White getting a large right side, but I suppose Black can get a large left side. Shadonra [1d\]: yeah, that's the idea Shadonra [1d\]: feels a little slow ] ;W[el]WL[1692.118] (;B[dg]BL[1716.789]C[Nakamura [8k\]: big moyo game. D= ] ;W[fj]WL[1670.561] ;B[ph]BL[1707.769] ;W[qh]WL[1665.844] ;B[pi]BL[1704.118] ;W[pj]WL[1661.775] ;B[qj]BL[1695.274] ;W[pg]WL[1657.256] ;B[oh]BL[1690.841] ;W[og]WL[1655.4] ;B[nh]BL[1689.543] ;W[nf]WL[1649.301] ;B[oe]BL[1674.129]C[redundant [5k\]: black ... just forced white into his moyo ] ;W[ng]WL[1625.507] ;B[ni]BL[1670.394] ;W[rd]WL[1611.017] ;B[md]BL[1666.219]C[Shadonra [1d\]: looks okish ] ;W[hd]WL[1577.971]C[oren [6k\]: odd looking game ] ;B[ec]BL[1627.101] ;W[hf]WL[1569.204] ;B[ic]BL[1616.701] ;W[je]WL[1561.349] ;B[ke]BL[1612.616] ;W[id]WL[1554.875] ;B[hc]BL[1585.654] ;W[gc]WL[1538.11] ;B[jc]BL[1580.748]C[redundant [5k\]: white really needs to k14 soon ] (;W[ge]WL[1527.509]C[redundant [5k\]: maybe not now Nikolas73 [5k\]: I figured teh centre group gave enough influence, and it was time to get some territory ] ;B[jr]BL[1551.643] ;W[jq]WL[1479.84] ;B[ir]BL[1544.664] ;W[kr]WL[1474.681] ;B[fq]BL[1539.141] ;W[er]WL[1447.183]C[Shadonra [1d\]: stop it Shadonra [1d\]: STOP IT Shadonra [1d\]: this move is when you can afford this sequence as white Shadonra [1d\]: least, that's how i always saw it Shadonra [1d\]: anyway, the result looks fine in this case Loons [4k\]: In this case can or can't white do that sequence ? ] (;B[fr]BL[1533.16] ;W[eq]WL[1427.681]C[Nikolas73 [5k\]: I didn't even think of E3 Shadonra [1d\]: maybe ] (;B[hp]BL[1526.703]C[Nikolas73 [5k\]: Black can live that way? Shadonra [1d\]: dunno Shadonra [1d\]: i'm not reading, just going off instincts Shadonra [1d\]: anyway this definitely won't live ] ;W[fp]WL[1423.621] ;B[gp]BL[1518.883]C[Loons [4k\]: it's a fight eh Shadonra [1d\]: hane's painful Nikolas73 [5k\]: right ] (;W[fo]WL[1412.416] ;B[es]BL[1514.877]C[Shadonra [1d\]: this move doesn't make a whole lot of sense Shadonra [1d\]: the group Shadonra [1d\]: isn't alive yet and you're playing endgame ] ;W[qc]WL[1369.675] ;B[pc]BL[1511.571] ;W[hn]WL[1341.741] ;B[dr]BL[1440.03]C[Shadonra [1d\]: ok, good, w's sealing in before he kills ] ;W[nn]WL[1298.127]C[Shadonra [1d\]: not sure what to make of this Prophet19 [11k\]: cap? maybe? Prophet19 [11k\]: err try to cap? Shadonra [1d\]: guess w thinks black is alive Shadonra [1d\]: which it is, now ] ;B[ro]BL[1404.087] ;W[rp]WL[1283.837] ;B[lr]BL[1335.662] ;W[ks]WL[1274.038] ;B[lq]BL[1330.506] ;W[kq]WL[1260.445] ;B[oq]BL[1326.474] (;W[nq]WL[1244.842] ;B[nr]BL[1318.025] (;W[pr]WL[1230.759] ;B[op]BL[1309.24] ;W[oo]WL[1220.929] ;B[lo]BL[1234.599] ;W[lm]WL[1152.644] ;B[io]BL[1212.36] ;W[jo]WL[1134.543] ;B[jn]BL[1208.727]C[Shadonra [1d\]: yo ] ;W[ko]WL[1044.115]C[Shadonra [1d\]: oh wow, white's getting destroyed ] ;B[kn]BL[1172.312]C[Shadonra [1d\]: i was expecting this: ] (;W[ln]WL[982.649]C[Shadonra [1d\]: b+15 Shadonra [1d\]: this bit was silly ] ;B[lp]BL[1146.547]C[Shadonra [1d\]: is my guess Shadonra [1d\]: now b+r ] ;W[in]WL[971.742]C[Shadonra [1d\]: i thought b could escape. ] ;B[jm]BL[1007.141] ;W[jl]WL[920.761] ;B[im]BL[996.908]C[Shadonra [1d\]: because i read this ] (;W[il]WL[908.77]C[Shadonra [1d\]: this is where it's clear black is screwt ] ;B[hm]BL[992.039] ;W[gn]WL[897.071] ;B[hl]BL[976.56]C[Shadonra [1d\]: ok, maybe i can't read ] ;W[hk]WL[858.759]C[oren [6k\]: reading is optional Nikolas73 [5k\]: we used a lot of our time around here, I also read something like that.. ] ;B[gk]BL[931.977]C[Shadonra [1d\]: it really is Shadonra [1d\]: i got 6k without being able to read ] (;W[ik]WL[815.688]C[Shadonra [1d\]: noooo Shadonra [1d\]: h10! h10! ] ;B[fl]BL[875.318] (;W[gm]WL[745.935] ;B[gl]BL[841.778] ;W[gj]WL[736.526] ;B[em]BL[806.497]C[Shadonra [1d\]: so uh.. who's here and watching this game? Shadonra [1d\]: seems some people are doing other stuff redundant [5k\]: i'm here Nakamura [7k\]: I am here. Shadonra [1d\]: ok then redundant [5k\]: watching this game turned naka into a 7k! Shadonra [1d\]: feels like it'll turn me into a 1k Shadonra [1d\]: there's three moves that work and none of them are hard to figure out Nakamura [7k\]: Haha. ] ;W[ek]WL[655.035] ;B[fm]BL[791.065] ;W[dm]WL[642.854] ;B[fn]BL[719.515]C[Shadonra [1d\]: suddenly, it became a close game ] ;W[go]WL[620.423] ;B[eo]BL[715.849] ;W[do]WL[593.729]C[redundant [5k\]: I don't like the opening in this game Nakamura [7k\]: Yeah, big moyo? redundant [5k\]: move 7 feels wrong redundant [5k\]: just don't like it Nakamura [7k\]: Yeah I know what you mean. Would you respond the same way? redundant [5k\]: as white? Nakamura [7k\]: Yes. redundant [5k\]: i'd knights move into the corner right away redundant [5k\]: settle Shadonra [1d\]: move 7 looks like a trap Nakamura [7k\]: I was going to say that. Shadonra [1d\]: but i'll go over it in a review Nakamura [7k\]: I second guess myself too much. Shadonra [1d\]: my reading says that w lives in the corner in gote Shadonra [1d\]: bottom left Nakamura [7k\]: Not the trap thing, the knight's move. That's what my instincts say. Shadonra [1d\]: not w, black Shadonra [1d\]: hmm Shadonra [1d\]: wait, i'm confused. blah ] ;B[bn]BL[517.236]C[Shadonra [1d\]: and now black dies in the corner Nakamura [7k\]: He's trying for the corner? redundant [5k\]: what is this I don't even Shadonra [1d\]: i don't know wtf he's trying Loons [4k\]: man sure is l19 in here Shadonra [1d\]: all i know is h2 kills the eye on the side redundant [5k\]: i've been eyeing h2 forever ] ;W[cn]WL[519.286]C[redundant [5k\]: pun intended Shadonra [1d\]: listen Shadonra [1d\]: i hate you Shadonra [1d\]: now black should die ] ;B[bp]BL[497.276]C[Nakamura [7k\]: Haha. ] ;W[cq]WL[475.112] ;B[br]BL[492.361]C[Shadonra [1d\]: c2 ] ;W[cr]WL[462.347] ;B[cs]BL[488.235] ;W[bq]WL[454.352] ;B[aq]BL[485.309]C[Shadonra [1d\]: that was unnecessary ] (;W[dq]WL[449.859]C[Shadonra [1d\]: whatever, H2 NOW ] ;B[ds]BL[479.368]C[Nakamura [7k\]: Right now. ] ;W[ar]WL[436.177]C[Shadonra [1d\]: riiiight now. ] ;B[as]BL[476.13]C[Shadonra [1d\]: actually, doesn't matter anymore ] ;W[bm]WL[426.35]C[Shadonra [1d\]: b can't get 2 eyes there Nakamura [7k\]: Yeah, that'd be his only eye anyway Loons [4k\]: B can't play h2 for 2 eyes ? Shadonra [1d\]: no ] ;B[iq]BL[437.152]C[Loons [4k\]: unfortunate Shadonra [1d\]: this looks dead Shadonra [1d\]: it's still dead ] (;W[gs]WL[408.436]C[Shadonra [1d\]: fail Loons [4k\]: shortage of liberties for W? Shadonra [1d\]: FAIL Loons [4k\]: Oh wait of course not Loons [4k\]: Man my eyes be deceivin' me today ] ;B[gr]BL[408.707]C[Shadonra [1d\]: game is quite close ] ;W[eh]WL[363.363] ;B[dh]BL[357.015] ;W[eg]WL[352.166] ;B[ef]BL[315.198] ;W[ff]WL[344.784] ;B[jf]BL[298.529] ;W[ee]WL[333.963]C[Shadonra [1d\]: k13 ] ;B[de]BL[287.019] ;W[df]WL[326.097] ;B[cf]BL[285.785] ;W[jg]WL[315.042]C[Shadonra [1d\]: woo! ] ;B[kg]BL[270.234] ;W[jh]WL[310.11] ;B[if]BL[265.557] ;W[ig]WL[301.562] ;B[kj]BL[218.069] ;W[jj]WL[288.278] ;B[ki]BL[213.297] ;W[bk]WL[281.824]C[Shadonra [1d\]: and then there was all this silliness ] ;B[bj]BL[210.219] ;W[qb]WL[276.584] ;B[pb]BL[203.789] ;W[pa]WL[265.689] ;B[oa]BL[200.708] ;W[qa]WL[262.009] ;B[ob]BL[198.754] ;W[aj]WL[246.209] ;B[ai]BL[185.679] ;W[ak]WL[243.666] ;B[bh]BL[183.215]C[Shadonra [1d\]: g18 ] ;W[gb]WL[236.215]C[Shadonra [1d\]: endgame was quite good, i was surprised ] ;B[hb]BL[180.378] ;W[da]WL[230.233]C[Nakamura [7k\]: Lots of observers. D= Prophet19 [11k\]: yeah xD Prophet19 [11k\]: waiting for the honinbu game to make there move ] ;B[db]BL[128.043] ;W[ea]WL[222.745] ;B[cb]BL[119.346] (;W[ri]WL[200.832] ;B[or]BL[86.149]C[Prophet19 [11k\]: wait for it ] (;W[pq]WL[174.81] ;B[po]BL[83.046] ;W[qp]WL[170.223] ;B[rn]BL[78.501] ;W[rr]WL[142.677]C[Loons [4k\]: I want to see Prophet19 [11k\]: go on igs or wbaduk Prophet19 [11k\]: its at the top of both of the game lists ] ;B[mo]BL[42.002]C[Loons [4k\]: W c19 B b19 B18 F19 Loons [4k\]: Because I enjoy misplays ] ;W[no]WL[113.167] ;B[mn]BL[37.682]C[Nakamura [7k\]: Uh oh. D= Prophet19 [11k\]: l1, is it possible to capture it? (just double checking)7 ] ;W[nm]WL[57.628] ;B[mm]BL[35.299]C[Loons [4k\]: what Loons [4k\]: noo Prophet19 [11k\]: ok XD ] ;W[ll]WL[38.511] ;B[ml]BL[26.169]C[Loons [4k\]: white what have you done ! redundant [5k\]: s2 unneeded ] ;W[nj]WL[9.064]C[Loons [4k\]: S2 possibly better spend killing M2 more soundly -_- ] ;B[oj]BL[8.892] ;W[nk]WL[60]OW[5] (;B[nl]BL[3.669]C[Shadonra [1d\]: wait, need this ] ;W[rk]WL[60]OW[5]C[Shadonra [1d\]: w should be careful, or the other fish gets out ] (;B[rl]BL[60]OB[5]C[Shadonra [1d\]: l8 ] ;W[rj]WL[60]OW[5] ;B[pl]BL[60]OB[5]C[redundant [5k\]: l8 is so close to working ] ;W[lk]WL[60]OW[5]C[Shadonra [1d\]: what are you talking about, it rowks Shadonra [1d\]: works Loons [4k\]: aww redundant [5k\]: i can't see snapbacks redundant [5k\]: ever Shadonra [1d\]: that is true ] ;B[mk]BL[60]OB[5]C[redundant [5k\]: ... Prophet19 [11k\]: O.o ] ;W[kh]WL[60]OW[5] ;B[lj]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[lg]WL[60]OW[5] ;B[kf]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[ca]WL[60]OW[5] ;B[ji]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[ii]WL[60]OW[5] ;B[kl]BL[60]OB[5]C[Nakamura [7k\]: No way! Shadonra [1d\]: close, but no Shadonra [1d\]: m13 is sente now though ] ;W[kk]WL[60]OW[5]C[Prophet19 [11k\]: hes missing m12 :/ Shadonra [1d\]: m12, that's what it is ] ;B[ei]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[fi]WL[60]OW[5]C[Shadonra [1d\]: this is a photo-finish ] ;B[lh]BL[60]OB[5]C[Nakamura [7k\]: Haha. Good game. Prophet19 [11k\]: m1222222 ] ;W[mh]WL[60]OW[5] ;B[li]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[bb]WL[60]OW[5]C[redundant [5k\]: ! Shadonra [1d\]: WHAT Loons [4k\]: wait redundant [5k\]: FINISH HIM RedStick [6k\]: ? Prophet19 [11k\]: LOL Prophet19 [11k\]: DOOO ITTT Loons [4k\]: N11 amirighte padic [5k\]: ohh.. ouch Prophet19 [11k\]: FATALITY ] ;B[bc]BL[60]OB[5]C[Prophet19 [11k\]: NOOWWWEEE Shadonra [1d\]: WHAT IS THIS redundant [5k\]: I DON'T EVEN ] (;W[bo]WL[60]OW[5] ;B[km]BL[60]OB[5]C[Prophet19 [11k\]: LOOK AT L7 Prophet19 [11k\]: DONE Shadonra [1d\]: DONE Prophet19 [11k\]: DONNNNEEE RedStick [6k\]: there we go Prophet19 [11k\]: best part. Shadonra [1d\]: thanks for the exciting game Nikolas73 [5k\]: that tesuji book I bought is finally paying off.. Nikolas73 [5k\]: thanks for reviewing Prophet19 [11k\]: xD Shadonra [1d\]: welcome Prophet19 [11k\]: nikolas Prophet19 [11k\]: epic kill ] ;W[jk]WL[60]OW[5]C[Nakamura [7k\]: !D= ] ;B[hj]BL[60]OB[5]C[Prophet19 [11k\]: DONNNEWEEE Loons [4k\]: O_O ] ;W[ij]WL[60]OW[5]C[Nakamura [7k\]: Wow. ] ;B[hi]BL[60]OB[5]C[Prophet19 [11k\]: OWWNEEDD Shadonra [1d\]: good game! Nikolas73 [5k\]: Thanks Jedo [4k\]: thanks for the game Prophet19 [11k\]: GG! Shadonra [1d\]: very exciting Nakamura [7k\]: Yes, very good game. Exciting. ]) (;W[km]C[Prophet19 [11k\]: i cant stop laughing XD epic ])) (;B[kl] (;W[kk] ;B[lk]) (;W[lk] ;B[kk] ;W[km] ;B[lj]))) (;B[kl]C[Shadonra [1d\]: lol what ])) (;W[po] ;B[pq] ;W[qr] ;B[qq] ;W[rq] ;B[qp] ;W[rn])) (;W[or]C[Shadonra [1d\]: would you like a review? Nikolas73 [5k\]: that was a very exciting game, yes ^^ Nikolas73 [5k\]: yes, please Jedo [4k\]: i cant now, but if you guys save it ill look at it later Jedo [4k\]: thanks again Shadonra [1d\]: give me control please Shadonra [1d\]: thanks! Nikolas73 [5k\]: oh, alright. Jedo - when is a good time for the next game? ])) (;W[fs] ;B[gs]C[Shadonra [1d\]: you got lucky ] ;W[hr] ;B[js] ;W[hs]C[Shadonra [1d\]: no, damn that shortage of libs Loons [4k\]: if B gets h2 instead of j3 ])) (;W[hr] ;B[cp] ;W[dq] ;B[co]C[Nikolas73 [5k\]: yes, at this point I saw that and started to worry... ] ;W[dn] ;B[bm] ;W[bl] ;B[ao] ;W[am])) (;W[gj] ;B[em] ;W[fk] ;B[gl] ;W[dl])) (;W[hj] ;B[gj] ;W[gl])) (;W[hk] ;B[il] ;W[jk] (;B[ik]C[Shadonra [1d\]: what the hell did i read Shadonra [1d\]: oh right ] ;W[ij] ;B[gl]) (;B[gm] ;W[gn]C[Shadonra [1d\]: yeah i dunno. ]))) (;W[lp] ;B[mp] ;W[mo] ;B[kp] ;W[ln] ;B[lp] ;W[mr] ;B[in]C[Shadonra [1d\]: guess w didn't think that was good enough Nikolas73 [5k\]: I was expecting the ko, but didn't read that part =/ ])) (;W[pq]C[Nikolas73 [5k\]: I was thinking of O6 or N7 for my next move, I guess it reduces Black's centre a little? Shadonra [1d\]: yeah, it does, and enlarges w. i see it now Shadonra [1d\]: ugly shape, hard to do much with it ] ;B[pr] ;W[op] ;B[or]C[Nikolas73 [5k\]: I didn't think White would manage to prevent both.. ] ;W[qr] ;B[lo] (;W[lm] ;B[kn]) (;W[lp] ;B[mp] ;W[mo]C[Nikolas73 [5k\]: my plan was to either capture White's 5 stones or run out here ] ;B[kp] ;W[ko] ;B[lp] ;W[ln] ;B[jo] ;W[kn]))) (;W[pq] ;B[nq] ;W[lo] ;B[op] ;W[oo] ;B[po] ;W[qp] ;B[pr] ;W[qr]C[Shadonra [1d\]: dead ] ;B[os])) (;W[iq] (;B[hq] ;W[js] ;B[hs] ;W[gr] ;B[hn]) (;B[hr] ;W[hq] ;B[gq] ;W[gs]))) (;B[fp] ;W[hq] ;B[hr] ;W[ho] ;B[do])) (;B[eq] (;W[dr] ;B[dq] ;W[cq]C[Shadonra [1d\]: if you can't., the sente descent is too good for black ]) (;W[dq] ;B[fr] ;W[dr] ;B[hp]))) (;W[jf]C[Shadonra [1d\]: yeah.. well, if you can invade the bottom, you're good Shadonra [1d\]: your territory is quite solid, white's isn't ])) (;B[fj]C[Shadonra [1d\]: let him invade Nikolas73 [5k\]: ah Nikolas73 [5k\]: yes ])) (;B[jj]C[Shadonra [1d\]: maybe? ])) (;B[qe] ;W[pf] ;B[pe]C[Shadonra [1d\]: bad shape, good move Nikolas73 [5k\]: oh, I didn't know that continuation ] ;W[og]C[Nikolas73 [5k\]: and I've been playing P14 for months O_o ] ;B[ng] ;W[oh] ;B[nf]))[/sgf-full] |
Author: | Nikolas73 [ Tue May 25, 2010 7:55 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
Ah, Shaddy beat me here. Thanks again for reviewing! Needless to say I won the game (it was very close, very exciting), and lead the series 2-1. Jedo, I will contact you to discuss when the next game is. |
Author: | Magicwand [ Tue May 25, 2010 8:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
Nikolas73 : FYI P14 will work at kyu level but if you play against stronger player you will not be successful. you will have to feel why it is a bad move yourself so i am just telling you the answer. when you feel that P14 is a bad move you may be 1D level certified. |
Author: | Nikolas73 [ Tue May 25, 2010 8:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
Magicwand wrote: Nikolas73 : FYI P14 will work at kyu level but if you play against stronger player you will not be successful. you will have to feel why it is a bad move yourself so i am just telling you the answer. when you feel that P14 is a bad move you may be 1D level certified. Hmm, you think so? I considered P16, R12 and O17, but they seemed a tad too territorial for a sanrensei opening. Well, I'll think about it, thanks for the tip.. |
Author: | SoDesuNe [ Wed May 26, 2010 2:20 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
What I heard is, with such a Keima you're leaving only weaknesses behind. Of course you'll scare a lot of weaker players, because we tend to overestimate Moyos but in the end this Keima can easily be cut when White approaches the other side. If you defend, White has the chance to develop one side and thus might be able to chase your corner stones, because the Keima didn't give you a base. A complicated position, indeed, but with proper fighting skills and reading it is bad for Black (in this example). The proper Moyo-move (Takemiya) for Black in this example would be 'c'. A Kosumi cannot be cut. Nikolas73 wrote: [...] but they seemed a tad too territorial for a sanrensei opening As far as I understand the San-Ren-Sei, there's nothing wrong with taking territory, when your opponent approaches/attacks/invades you. This is in my opinion the actual idea behind this opening. |
Author: | Solomon [ Wed May 26, 2010 3:01 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
I disagree with both Magicwand and SoDesuNe here. The keima has been played professionally plenty of times, and unless Takemiya is a hypocrite, then what SoDesuNe makes no sense because he is the one who uses it the most: And other professionals have played it of course, to list a few in the past...: ...and the present: So if it's fine by the likes to Takemiya Masaki, Kitani Minoru, Go Seigen, Luo Xihe, and more...then it's fine by me. And in response to Magicwand's post to Nikolas...when you feel the move is bad, and then fine again, you may be 5d certified . |
Author: | topazg [ Wed May 26, 2010 3:05 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
G14?? No wonder everyone loves this guy |
Author: | Solomon [ Wed May 26, 2010 3:08 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
topazg wrote: Yes, it's a move I need to try more often to open my mind. Oddly I think of a Vulture from SC whenever I see it (you can kind of see it from the shape). And like the Vulture it's light, nimble, and if you try to exploit it too quickly you might get a Spider Mine to the face . |
Author: | SoDesuNe [ Wed May 26, 2010 3:18 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
Ha ha ha, okay I'll try to refrain from naming professionals, if I am not familiar with all their ("special") moves ^^ Thanks anyway, I learnt something! |
Author: | prokofiev [ Wed May 26, 2010 4:45 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
Araban wrote: topazg wrote: Yes, it's a move I need to try more often to open my mind. Oddly I think of a Vulture from SC whenever I see it (you can kind of see it from the shape). And like the Vulture it's light, nimble, and if you try to exploit it too quickly you might get a Spider Mine to the face . Something's wrong here. Black has made 7 moves, but White only 5. |
Author: | Solomon [ Wed May 26, 2010 5:11 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
prokofiev wrote: Something's wrong here. Black has made 7 moves, but White only 5. Yep, forgot a move. Edited. |
Author: | Magicwand [ Wed May 26, 2010 5:27 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
Araban wrote: I disagree with both Magicwand and SoDesuNe here. The keima has been played professionally plenty of times, and unless Takemiya is a hypocrite, then what SoDesuNe makes no sense because he is the one who uses it the most: yes you are correct that takameya (masaki?) has played that move many times. i remember when i used to review professional's game. 20 years ago. BUT! takameya was a radical who was willing to try new ideas. if it is a good move why aren't professional today not playing such move? what i felt about that move when i experiminted on my game was.... akward. it has a weak spots and very hard to fix. on some games it might be appropriate but i felt that on a normal opening it is sub joseki. and i bet many professionals feel that way about that move. just because few professionals experimented a move doesnt mean it is a good move. |
Author: | Solomon [ Wed May 26, 2010 5:44 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
Magicwand wrote: Araban wrote: I disagree with both Magicwand and SoDesuNe here. The keima has been played professionally plenty of times, and unless Takemiya is a hypocrite, then what SoDesuNe makes no sense because he is the one who uses it the most: yes you are correct that takameya (masaki?) has played that move many times. i remember when i used to review professional's game. 20 years ago. BUT! takameya was a radical who was willing to try new ideas. if it is a good move why aren't professional today not playing such move? what i felt about that move when i experiminted on my game was.... akward. it has a weak spots and very hard to fix. on some games it might be appropriate but i felt that on a normal opening it is sub joseki. and i bet many professionals feel that way about that move. just because few professionals experimented a move doesnt mean it is a good move. The answer is quite simple actually: the problem is that today most professionals aren't even willing to try the san-ren-sei, so the opportunity to even set up the opening for the keima is severely restricted. Unless you're willing to extend your argument to say that the san-ren-sei is bad (which is a bold statement), then the argument doesn't hold much ground when the conditional requirement for the keima is a specific opening that is also rare today. Most professionals play territorially and strive to win rather than try bold ideas, but I think the handful of games where we do see professionals use it is more than enough for amateurs at our level to consider. And as I wrote in my earlier thread, it isn't just Takemiya who played that move and I showed games from other pros who have also used it. |
Author: | topazg [ Wed May 26, 2010 5:57 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
To me, it makes a lot of intuitive sense as a move. Sure, it leaves weaknesses the other side that White can poke holes at, but Black has not just the hoshi on the edge, but in the other corner too, so he shouldn't be frightened of White doing this. It looks complicated, and a number of ways it could go wrong could be disastrously so (and the same in the other direction), but that's how professionals play a lot of the time, dancing along the edge of a very sharp sword. |
Author: | Aphelion [ Wed May 26, 2010 3:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
Here is game 2 between me and Padic. Padic was Black and I took White. Result is W+R, so I lead our series 2-0. Game 3 will be tbh, but possibly around 19:00CEST tomorrow. I will post exact time before the match. [sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2] RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]TM[1800]OT[5x60 byo-yomi] PW[Aphelion02]PB[padic]WR[6k]BR[5k]DT[2010-05-26]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[ padic [5k\]: okay, have a good game ]RE[W+Resign] ;B[pd]BL[1786.97] ;W[dc]WL[1795.518]C[ Aphelion02 [6k\]: keep my cool? ] ;B[pq]BL[1779.574] ;W[dq]WL[1792.058] ;B[qk]BL[1771.67]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: i was sweating bullets ] ;W[mp]WL[1789.751]C[padic [5k\]: one can't tell over the internet ] (;B[pn]BL[1748.792]C[goatsunday [8k\]: staying calm under pressure Aphelion02 [6k\]: many ppl are tempted to gobble up the whole side Aphelion02 [6k\]: in one move ExplO [2d\]: here there are problemes with r7 and r3 ExplO [2d\]: and it's hard to cover them with one more move ] ;W[jp]WL[1784.923] ;B[ce]BL[1740.058] ;W[dh]WL[1778.273] ;B[cc]BL[1715.891]C[padic [5k\]: right.. i didn't expect that the corner was covered completely ] ;W[cb]WL[1775.673]C[padic [5k\]: but I thought it more or less was enough for making living along the side there painful ] (;B[bc]BL[1710.785] (;W[bb]WL[1745.434]C[ExplO [2d\]: I didn't like b18 ] ;B[dd]BL[1701.135] ;W[ec]WL[1743.547] (;B[ed]BL[1691.156] ;W[fc]WL[1732.919]C[Shadonra [1d\]: hallo ExplO [2d\]: black group is still a bit weak Shadonra [1d\]: b12 is urgent ExplO [2d\]: but hard to find a good move to defend it ] (;B[do]BL[1667.6]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: hi shaddy ] ;W[cm]WL[1730.061] ;B[cq]BL[1638.248] ;W[cp]WL[1634.171] ;B[dp]BL[1498.56] ;W[co]WL[1630.878]C[ExplO [2d\]: I'm not sure what black is thinking about, only one possible move here Nakamura [7k\]: e3? ] (;B[dr]BL[1390.356]C[Shadonra [1d\]: but when you play that joseki, the slide and b18 are miai Aphelion02 [6k\]: i really like this pincer ] ;W[eq]WL[1626.451]C[Nakamura [7k\]: or the corner. D= ] ;B[bq]BL[1384.247]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: because there are so many way for blackto mess up ] (;W[dn]WL[1620.529]C[ExplO [2d\]: c6 was the only move ] ;B[er]BL[1354.784]C[Nakamura [7k\]: Ah, I thought of that too. I see. ExplO [2d\]: e2 was double sente, so it's good to play it ] ;W[fq]WL[1614.801]C[ExplO [2d\]: d6 was wrong too RedStick [6k\]: whew. just when i thought i'd have to go back to working. RedStick [6k\]: i get to watch a kuchinashi game. Aphelion02 [6k\]: yea ] ;B[jc]BL[1269.094]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: i didn't read out c6 Aphelion02 [6k\]: afterwards Aphelion02 [6k\]: if i played e2 ] ;W[qf]WL[1590.601] (;B[qh]BL[1260.389] ;W[qc]WL[1582.315] ;B[pc]BL[1251.744]C[ExplO [2d\]: I would have blocked from the other side, but hard to tell what is better ] ;W[qd]WL[1580.34] ;B[pe]BL[1247.08] ;W[rf]WL[1578.201] ;B[pf]BL[1239.337] ;W[fd]WL[1540.85]C[ExplO [2d\]: and k17 is low ] ;B[fe]BL[1236.951] ;W[ge]WL[1538.226] ;B[ff]BL[1232.462] ;W[df]WL[1534.097] ;B[cf]BL[1207.31] ;W[dg]WL[1519.555] ;B[de]BL[1194.956] ;W[bg]WL[1510.589] ;B[gf]BL[1177.033] ;W[he]WL[1506.811] ;B[bf]BL[1164.585] (;W[bd]WL[1480.197]C[ExplO [2d\]: this move was bad Shadonra [1d\]: i'd rather just slide here, seems to avoid complications ExplO [2d\]: the purpose of an attack is to gain points Aphelion02 [6k\]: ahh Aphelion02 [6k\]: what would you play Aphelion02 [6k\]: my idea was to squeeze black Aphelion02 [6k\]: to the right ExplO [2d\]: here, you lose some points ] ;B[ad]BL[1146.31] ;W[bh]WL[1448.88] ;B[hf]BL[1119.938] ;W[ie]WL[1444.553] ;B[gi]BL[1116.216]C[ExplO [2d\]: in the game ExplO [2d\]: 1- you lost some points around a17 ExplO [2d\]: 2- you invited black to get in the area where you want to make territorry Aphelion02 [6k\]: also bottom and left ExplO [2d\]: so black destroys many points while making life Aphelion02 [6k\]: yea, this sucked ] ;W[gk]WL[1362.013] (;B[im]BL[1070.137]C[ExplO [2d\]: g11 is not completly safe and j7 will be attacked as well padic [5k\]: so if white j9 black counters with a moyo of his own? ] ;W[ik]WL[1356.395] ;B[km]BL[1042.288] ;W[mm]WL[1308.497] ;B[ll]BL[983.16]C[RedStick [6k\]: i don't know how i feel about what B is doing here ] ;W[ml]WL[1228.968]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: after black tenuki ] (;B[ke]BL[944.909] (;W[lk]WL[1148.822]C[RedStick [6k\]: L9? ExplO [2d\]: maybe black is worried about white's answer at j8 RedStick [6k\]: oops. i meant k9. RedStick [6k\]: L9 , k8 was my first read though. Nakamura [7k\]: doesn't seem like there is much to work with. ExplO [2d\]: hum, I still prefer l9 Nakamura [7k\]: Pushing out around L9 is his only hope, seems to me. Nakamura [7k\]: Maybe take the K8 cut just to get out. RedStick [6k\]: J8 best response to K9? RedStick [6k\]: no. i'm blind. RedStick [6k\]: what hurts k9? ] ;B[kk]BL[616.251]C[ExplO [2d\]: k9 k10 ans black is sealed ExplO [2d\]: and* Nakamura [7k\]: I was going to say K10 but I wasn't sure if it was too direct. RedStick [6k\]: i read that after a crosscut he could get out through h9. maybe? ] (;W[hi]WL[929.898]C[ExplO [2d\]: maybe ] ;B[jk]BL[514.37] ;W[lj]WL[910]C[Nakamura [7k\]: k11? or go after 3 white stones? ] ;B[ji]BL[489.602] ;W[ii]WL[907.531] ;B[jh]BL[470.254] ;W[if]WL[902.987] ;B[ig]BL[452.47]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: i read this wrong here ] ;W[gh]WL[799.09] ;B[hg]BL[437.909] ;W[il]WL[735.995] ;B[jl]BL[427.41] ;W[lh]WL[734.058]C[ExplO [2d\]: white got quite a lot on the left side padic [5k\]: was white h11 right? I thought k8 would still be bad for black at that point ] ;B[kg]BL[406.754] ;W[jf]WL[645.587]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: meh Aphelion02 [6k\]: this was not so nice ExplO [2d\]: this didn't look great Aphelion02 [6k\]: i just solidified him more ExplO [2d\]: yes ] ;B[kf]BL[268.602] ;W[qm]WL[622.126] (;B[pm]BL[246.791]C[Shadonra [1d\]: w doesn't take much away ] ;W[qn]WL[583.634] ;B[qo]BL[240.153]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: :S Aphelion02 [6k\]: but black connects anyways ] (;W[po]WL[516.744] (;B[oo]BL[152.767]C[oren [6k\]: who will win ] ;W[jn]WL[200.148] ;B[jm]BL[140.407] ;W[lm]WL[195.553] ;B[hc]BL[101.799] ;W[gd]WL[191.513] ;B[jg]BL[95.39] ;W[ro]WL[187.886]C[Nakamura [7k\]: D= ] ;B[qp]BL[84.129]SQ[oo][po]C[ExplO [2d\]: anyway the marked exchange is not good Aphelion02 [6k\]: yes padic [5k\]: after h17, is there some trouble if black g18? ] ;W[ql]WL[186.284] (;B[pl]BL[69.13] ;W[rk]WL[184.839] ;B[qj]BL[59.141] ;W[rj]WL[178.7] ;B[mo]BL[30.568]C[Shadonra [1d\]: nice ExplO [2d\]: n5, what is the pupose? ] ;W[lo]WL[176.422] ;B[mn]BL[5.604] ;W[ln]WL[170.647]C[Nakamura [7k\]: N2 for black? padic [5k\]: misreading pretty much ExplO [2d\]: it only helped white in the game ] ;B[rp]BL[60]OB[5]C[Nakamura [7k\]: Well eventually, at least. ] ;W[ri]WL[116.889] ;B[qi]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[qb]WL[60]OW[5] ;B[pb]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[pa]WL[60]OW[5] ;B[oa]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[qa]WL[60]OW[5] ;B[ob]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[gb]WL[60]OW[5] (;B[hb]BL[60]OB[5]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: i always never see moves like n2 ] ;W[ha]WL[60]OW[5] ;B[hn]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[ja]WL[60]OW[5] ;B[kb]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[go]WL[60]OW[4] ;B[ho]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[hp]WL[60]OW[4] ;B[gn]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[fo]WL[60]OW[4] ;B[fn]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[fl]WL[60]OW[4] ;B[mr]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[kr]WL[60]OW[2] ;B[np]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[mq]WL[60]OW[2] ;B[nq]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[ka]WL[60]OW[2] ;B[la]BL[60]OB[5]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: should just n13 ] (;W[mf]WL[60]OW[2]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: ack ] ;B[mg]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[lg]WL[60]OW[2] ;B[lf]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[ng]WL[60]OW[2] ;B[mh]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[nh]WL[60]OW[2] ;B[mi]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[ni]WL[60]OW[2] ;B[li]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[nj]WL[60]OW[2]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: so much lack of reading ] ;B[nf]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[of]WL[60]OW[2] ;B[ne]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[pg]WL[60]OW[2] ;B[ok]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[oe]WL[60]OW[2] ;B[od]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[og]WL[60]OW[2] ;B[rh]BL[60]OB[5]C[padic [5k\]: watch the timer, I haven't counted exactly but I don't think I can win this on time in good conscience ] ;W[nd]WL[60]OW[1] ;B[me]BL[60]OB[5]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: thanks for the heads up ] ;W[nc]WL[60]OW[1]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: i should have just left it Aphelion02 [6k\]: since he has to defeind m18 Aphelion02 [6k\]: too padic [5k\]: I think you could've taken a few stones there at least? Aphelion02 [6k\]: yea padic [5k\]: m18? Aphelion02 [6k\]: but i was worried Aphelion02 [6k\]: right might die ] ;B[mb]BL[60]OB[5]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: i wonder Aphelion02 [6k\]: so i wantedto make sure i got p18 Aphelion02 [6k\]: and not just m19 ] ;W[rn]WL[60]OW[1] ;B[si]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[sl]WL[60]OW[1] ;B[en]BL[60]OB[5] ;W[em]WL[60]OW[1] ;B[eo]BL[60]OB[4] ;W[fr]WL[60]OW[1] (;B[cs]BL[60]OB[4]C[ExplO [2d\]: here c1 isn't needed padic [5k\]: huh, okay ExplO [2d\]: and if you reinfoce anyway, b2 is probably better ExplO [2d\]: the reason is ] ;W[bp]WL[60]OW[1] (;B[aq]BL[60]OB[4]C[padic [5k\]: b6, does that help anything? ] ;W[es]WL[60]OW[1] ;B[br]BL[60]OB[4] ;W[lr]WL[60]OW[1] ;B[ms]BL[60]OB[4] ;W[sj]WL[60]OW[1] ;B[sh]BL[60]OB[4]C[padic [5k\]: I was actually looking at a6 :/ ] ;W[sp]WL[60]OW[1] ;B[sq]BL[60]OB[4] ;W[so]WL[60]OW[1]C[padic [5k\]: when you said b6 ] ;B[rq]BL[60]OB[3] ;W[ls]WL[60]OW[1] ;B[nr]BL[60]OB[3] ;W[in]WL[60]OW[1] ;B[hl]BL[60]OB[3] ;W[hk]WL[60]OW[1]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: i'd have settled for seki ] (;B[sf]BL[60]OB[3]C[Shadonra [1d\]: s14 here padic [5k\]: I was sort of trying to do something big, kill something or create a seki Shadonra [1d\]: 15, sorry padic [5k\]: desperation ] ;W[re]WL[60]OW[1]C[RedStick [6k\]: f12 ] ;B[qg]BL[60]OB[3]C[ExplO [2d\]: f12 is big ExplO [2d\]: a4 too ] ;W[nk]WL[60]OW[1] ;B[sd]BL[60]OB[3] ;W[sc]WL[60]OW[1] (;B[rc]BL[60]OB[3]C[goatsunday [8k\]: good job keeping your cool ] ;W[se]WL[60]OW[1]C[RedStick [6k\]: would t18 have worked? Aphelion02 [6k\]: looked realy scary Aphelion02 [6k\]: explo, do you mind reviewing ExplO [2d\]: nope ] ;B[sb]BL[60]OB[3]C[ExplO [2d\]: I don't think so ExplO [2d\]: white cuts at t15 and it's the same result as the game ] ;W[rb]WL[60]OW[1] (;B[sc]BL[60]OB[3]C[ExplO [2d\]: t17 is gote actually ] (;W[sg]WL[60]OW[1]C[padic [5k\]: thanks Aphelion02 [6k\]: thanks Aphelion02 [6k\]: whew Aphelion02 [6k\]: that should have been ko? padic [5k\]: last chance was there being something very nasty in the corner I thought padic [5k\]: should it? ] ;B[rg] ;W[io] ;B[qe] ;W[rd]C[ExplO [2d\]: white is fine if he ignores Aphelion02 [6k\]: mm padic [5k\]: right, white can just capture so there's nothing Aphelion02 [6k\]: i didn't realize i was 30 points ahead Aphelion02 [6k\]: i thought it was like 10 ExplO [2d\]: black does not have many points Aphelion02 [6k\]: thanks for the review ExplO [2d\]: you're welcome padic [5k\]: yeah, thanks Aphelion02 [6k\]: padic, when do you want to play enxt ExplO [2d\]: if no questions, I'll close Aphelion02 [6k\]: *next Aphelion02 [6k\]: yea, no questions Shadonra [1d\]: man, i wish i could play in a tourney like this Aphelion02 [6k\]: haha padic [5k\]: tomorrow? Aphelion02 [6k\]: ok Aphelion02 [6k\]: 18:00? padic [5k\]: sure Shadonra [1d\]: next cup better be 2k-2d Aphelion02 [6k\]: only if we advance to 2k Shadonra [1d\]: i wish you luck then Aphelion02 [6k\]: its been the same ppl proposing it RedStick [6k\]: i think it would be amazing. no need to wait on us. Aphelion02 [6k\]: nonsense Shadonra [1d\]: i guess there are plenty of 2k-2d on the forum padic [5k\]: haha Aphelion02 [6k\]: we must make 1d soon! Shadonra [1d\]: maybe i will set this up Aphelion02 [6k\]: else they'd never get to play! Aphelion02 [6k\]: more incentive for them to teach us Shadonra [1d\]: i'm always up for teaching Aphelion02 [6k\]: but yea i think a dan level Aphelion02 [6k\]: tourny would be great Aphelion02 [6k\]: there's a lot of pppl Shadonra [1d\]: also i learned teaching from feng yun, who thinks that beating people until they learn is how you do it Aphelion02 [6k\]: o.O Aphelion02 [6k\]: *backs away slowly* Aphelion02 [6k\]: my mom had the same philosophy Shadonra [1d\]: yeahh... Shadonra [1d\]: i mean it worked! Shadonra [1d\]: definitely worked Aphelion02 [6k\]: haha Shadonra [1d\]: just.. painful. Aphelion02 [6k\]: and possibly traumatic Shadonra [1d\]: taking 9 stones and losing by 100 will do that Aphelion02 [6k\]: god Aphelion02 [6k\]: wow thats really bad Shadonra [1d\]: i mean i was only 5k Shadonra [1d\]: but still, it was discouraging Aphelion02 [6k\]: but steal... Aphelion02 [6k\]: *still Aphelion02 [6k\]: thats like Shadonra [1d\]: but the reviews were amazing, she sees really cool tesuji Aphelion02 [6k\]: you barely have a living group Shadonra [1d\]: yup Aphelion02 [6k\]: are u still learning from her? Shadonra [1d\]: no, can't - college and stuff, i can't go to her rutgers classes Aphelion02 [6k\]: wow u learnt in poserson? Aphelion02 [6k\]: *person Shadonra [1d\]: yeah Aphelion02 [6k\]: lucky Shadonra [1d\]: she is of the philosophy that doing lots of easy tsumego is better for learning, btw ]) (;W[ap]C[ExplO [2d\]: white can block here ]) (;W[fh]C[ExplO [2d\]: or here ]) (;W[ab]) (;W[io]C[ExplO [2d\]: many good alternatives Aphelion02 [6k\]: yes padic [5k\]: yeah, I was under the mistaken impression that I was making a ko padic [5k\]: thus the resignation one move later ])) (;B[sa]) (;B[qe]) (;B[ra] ;W[rd]C[ExplO [2d\]: there was nothing in the corner ] ;B[qe])) (;B[se] ;W[rd] ;B[sg] ;W[rb]C[ExplO [2d\]: also 5 points in the corner here ExplO [2d\]: and sente for black ] (;B[ab] ;W[eb] ;B[ap]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: f12? Aphelion02 [6k\]: isn't that bigger ]) (;B[fh] ;W[fi]C[Shadonra [1d\]: w will cut him off ] (;B[fg] ;W[ei]C[ExplO [2d\]: bigger I don't know Aphelion02 [6k\]: why doesn't black atari Aphelion02 [6k\]: and poke in ]) (;B[ei] ;W[gj] ;B[eh] ;W[ef]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: ahh ExplO [2d\]: some connection problems ])))) (;B[ap]C[ExplO [2d\]: a4 is still big ]) (;B[fh]C[ExplO [2d\]: and f12 padic [5k\]: hm, okay ]) (;B[re] ;W[qe] ;B[sf] ;W[rd] ;B[se] ;W[sd] (;B[sg]C[Shadonra [1d\]: sente! Aphelion02 [6k\]: i'm so bad with corner problems ]) (;B[qg] ;W[nk] ;B[sg]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: is it ko in corner? Shadonra [1d\]: yes ExplO [2d\]: yes ] ;W[oh] ;B[sb] ;W[rb] ;B[sc] ;W[sa]))) (;B[nr] ;W[ar] ;B[br] ;W[aq] ;B[es] ;W[bs]C[ExplO [2d\]: this is ko ]) (;B[ap]C[ExplO [2d\]: no reason not the play the hane though ] ;W[ao] ;B[aq]C[ExplO [2d\]: you can play b6 later ExplO [2d\]: in the game white had the chance to play at a4 ] ;W[lr]C[padic [5k\]: except as a ko threat? ] ;B[bn] ;W[cn] ;B[bo] ;W[bm] ;B[an]C[padic [5k\]: oh ] ;W[am] ;B[ao]C[Shadonra [1d\]: 6 pt gote padic [5k\]: huh padic [5k\]: nice ExplO [2d\]: worth 6 points in gote ])) (;B[br] ;W[bp]C[padic [5k\]: will look over that later, it looked so shaky ExplO [2d\]: this is alive, without extramove ])) (;W[mg]C[ExplO [2d\]: maybe ] ;B[mi]C[ExplO [2d\]: but you have to be sure black cannot cut Aphelion02 [6k\]: seems fine? ExplO [2d\]: yes ])) (;B[fr]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: vexes me so much ExplO [2d\]: f2 is really big ])) (;B[gb] (;W[ab]C[Shadonra [1d\]: dead ] ;B[da]) (;W[da]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: o,O ExplO [2d\]: alive like this ]))) (;B[ro]C[ExplO [2d\]: maybe black can kill now padic [5k\]: was worried about q8 padic [5k\]: but no need? Aphelion02 [6k\]: eh wait ] ;W[pl]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: actually ] ;B[ql]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: no ladder Shadonra [1d\]: q8, r8, p6, p7 ExplO [2d\]: right ] ;W[on] ;B[om] ;W[ol]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: p8 ] ;B[nm] ;W[nn]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: yea or this ])) (;W[ro]C[ExplO [2d\]: directly here Aphelion02 [6k\]: i was dreaming here Aphelion02 [6k\]: h it hought i had a way to kill q3 ])) (;B[qn]C[Shadonra [1d\]: that's a weird invasion point ExplO [2d\]: I would defend here ExplO [2d\]: I think it's hard to kill it Aphelion02 [6k\]: i was looking between that and something around r3 padic [5k\]: okay ExplO [2d\]: and also hard to use the wall after ])) (;W[jl] ;B[kl] ;W[jm] ;B[kn] ;W[jn]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: yea was my first consideration Aphelion02 [6k\]: i think iw as worried about o8 ExplO [2d\]: it big too Aphelion02 [6k\]: afterwards ExplO [2d\]: but the result in the game is ok too padic [5k\]: okay ExplO [2d\]: I don't know the best way for both here ])) (;W[jl]C[ExplO [2d\]: what do you answer here? padic [5k\]: yeah I regretted that tenuki after I played it ExplO [2d\]: cutting the tail is already a lot of safe points ] ;B[jm] ;W[lk]C[Shadonra [1d\]: l5? padic [5k\]: I think I'd have to lose the tail which is terrible ])) (;B[lj]) (;B[lk]C[ExplO [2d\]: black must defend ExplO [2d\]: this is where the action is ExplO [2d\]: not at the top Aphelion02 [6k\]: mm if in game i plaoyed m10 Aphelion02 [6k\]: does it kill ])) (;B[ii]TR[ik][mm]C[ExplO [2d\]: as black, maybe you can defend, not sure ExplO [2d\]: with those points as miai padic [5k\]: I was getting nervous about white's moyo becoming too solid padic [5k\]: ah ExplO [2d\]: it looks safer ] ;W[ik] ;B[mm]C[padic [5k\]: black's seems more open ExplO [2d\]: it both reduces white moyo and expand black moyo Aphelion02 [6k\]: it feels like white is losing abit like this padic [5k\]: huh, oh, I saw this as good for white Aphelion02 [6k\]: white feels a tad over concentrated? Aphelion02 [6k\]: k4, j9, g9 ExplO [2d\]: I don't know who is better here ExplO [2d\]: black has some weakness in his moyo, but he will keep quite a lot of territory ])) (;W[ac] ;B[bd]C[ExplO [2d\]: you lose this endgame ExplO [2d\]: yes but ]) (;W[fi] ;B[bd] ;W[ij]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: doh Aphelion02 [6k\]: man i am so myopic ExplO [2d\]: I'm not saying black should play this way ExplO [2d\]: but if he does, it's great for you ])) (;B[qe] ;W[pf] ;B[nd] ;W[qi]C[padic [5k\]: I chose that direction because of k17 Aphelion02 [6k\]: yea i expected this ExplO [2d\]: this is better than the game ExplO [2d\]: yes but r9 makes it akward ])) (;W[er] (;B[cs]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: ahh ] (;W[es]) (;W[bp] ;B[br] (;W[dn]C[ExplO [2d\]: very small life ExplO [2d\]: the 4 points in the corner are not worth the influence padic [5k\]: yeah, good for white.. not that far from the game Shadonra [1d\]: e6 seems to kill the stones outright Aphelion02 [6k\]: oh ]) (;W[en] ;B[dn] ;W[dm] ;B[eo]C[ExplO [2d\]: really? Shadonra [1d\]: hane ] ;W[fo] ;B[fn] ;W[em] ;B[fp] ;W[go] ;B[ep] ;W[gq] ;B[gp] (;W[ho]) (;W[hp] ;B[ho] ;W[gn] ;B[hq] ;W[ip]C[ExplO [2d\]: not captured yet Shadonra [1d\]: hm, damn ])))) (;B[cn] ;W[dn] ;B[bn] ;W[eo]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: XD ExplO [2d\]: white is fine ]))) (;B[cn]C[ExplO [2d\]: c6 is the only move here ExplO [2d\]: you can look at the variations in joseki dictionnaries padic [5k\]: hm, okay.. I just knew that c3 was supposed to work but couldn't remember how ])) (;B[bh]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: yea usually when i play b18 it turns out like this ExplO [2d\]: it's also painful Aphelion02 [6k\]: so i like it Shadonra [1d\]: true Aphelion02 [6k\]: but i didn't see that jump before ])) (;B[fd]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: ahh ExplO [2d\]: black can probably jump here ExplO [2d\]: so black is satisfied ])) (;W[dd] ;B[de] ;W[fd]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: d16? ] ;B[bh] ;W[ic]C[ExplO [2d\]: yes ])) (;B[dd]C[ExplO [2d\]: here is possible too padic [5k\]: I'm always nervous about b17 ] ;W[bc] ;B[ec] ;W[cd] ;B[db] ;W[cc] ;B[ee]C[padic [5k\]: yeah, I've seen that one.. just looks so hard to know what to do with it ExplO [2d\]: possible too Aphelion02 [6k\]: i like this for black ] ;W[eb] ;B[fb] ;W[da] ;B[fc]C[ExplO [2d\]: black is not bad here ])) (;B[po]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: ExplO [2d\]: usually here padic [5k\]: hm, okay ExplO [2d\]: better aji ExplO [2d\]: white can invade at r7 but you weakness is clear ]))[/sgf-full] |
Author: | Magicwand [ Wed May 26, 2010 3:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
Araban wrote: Magicwand wrote: Araban wrote: I disagree with both Magicwand and SoDesuNe here. The keima has been played professionally plenty of times, and unless Takemiya is a hypocrite, then what SoDesuNe makes no sense because he is the one who uses it the most: yes you are correct that takameya (masaki?) has played that move many times. i remember when i used to review professional's game. 20 years ago. BUT! takameya was a radical who was willing to try new ideas. if it is a good move why aren't professional today not playing such move? what i felt about that move when i experiminted on my game was.... akward. it has a weak spots and very hard to fix. on some games it might be appropriate but i felt that on a normal opening it is sub joseki. and i bet many professionals feel that way about that move. just because few professionals experimented a move doesnt mean it is a good move. The answer is quite simple actually: the problem is that today most professionals aren't even willing to try the san-ren-sei, so the opportunity to even set up the opening for the keima is severely restricted. Unless you're willing to extend your argument to say that the san-ren-sei is bad (which is a bold statement), then the argument doesn't hold much ground when the conditional requirement for the keima is a specific opening that is also rare today. Most professionals play territorially and strive to win rather than try bold ideas, but I think the handful of games where we do see professionals use it is more than enough for amateurs at our level to consider. And as I wrote in my earlier thread, it isn't just Takemiya who played that move and I showed games from other pros who have also used it. i will make this argument. how many games from takamiya's career he played that awkward move? answer is not too many. i only can recall 2 from the games that i can recall. and i bet he experimented with that move less than 5 times. now how many games did he answer other ways... too many games. also that awkward move came from his earlier career only. he stopped playing because he felt that is is easier to win with other moves. ENLIGHTMENT! yes i even recall some korean professionals tried that move. does that mean it is correct? i remember see some experimental moves by professionals that is off the wall 5-5 , 6-6 and many others. does that make them right? i am sure you feel the weakness of that move when you play them. yes it has some potental to make your opponent think and make mistakes. but bottom line IT IS SUB JOSEKY. |
Author: | Chew Terr [ Wed May 26, 2010 3:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
Aphelion, the fuseki you used was very interesting, especially your choice in pincers. I really need to vary mine up, maybe I should try mixing it up a bit... Your two-space high in the top left seems intriguing. Thanks for posting the game. |
Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Wed May 26, 2010 3:54 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k) |
The two-space high pincer against the low approach seems like one of the most popular plays by professionals, but I haven't reviewed many games from the 21st century so I couldn't tell you if this is still the case. It's definitely a strong move though. |
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