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 Post subject: good old repetition
Post #1 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:45 pm 
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Here`s an interesting article I stumbled on this afternoon.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scie ... tists.html

Key points:
* repetition (160 times) produces strong memories of new words.
* you remember better when relaxed and not "trying" to remember

My take: more evidence that you need to practice what you learn, and that it`s better to read something with interest than to attempt to memorise it, because that seems to produce better recall.

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 Post subject: Re: good old repetition
Post #2 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:07 am 
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Tami

This seems relevant enough to go not to be off-topic. As further grist to your mill regarding skill acquisition, I saw in Kahneman today that there are two basic conditions for acuiring a skill:

(a) an environment that is sufficiently regular to be predictable
(b) an opportunity to learn these regularities through prolonged practice

He adds that "when both these conditions are satisfied, intuitions are likely to be satisfied. Chess is an extreme example of a regular environment, but bridge and poker also provide robust statistical regularities that can support skill."

This makes the oft-quoted advice to play over the games of a single player even more relevant, I think. For example, in The Games of Honinbo Shuei I highlighted a facet of his style (not discovered by me, but I made much of it) which is that he favoured centre-facing L-shapes. If you study an example of this in one of his games, you are more likely to meet further examples if you stick with his games. That way you get the necessary repetition (though 160 examples may be stretching it!).


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 Post subject: Re: good old repetition
Post #3 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:34 am 
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Tami wrote:
Here`s an interesting article I stumbled on this afternoon.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scie ... tists.html

Key points:
* repetition (160 times) produces strong memories of new words.
* you remember better when relaxed and not "trying" to remember

My take: more evidence that you need to practice what you learn, and that it`s better to read something with interest than to attempt to memorise it, because that seems to produce better recall.


There is no question than repetition, even receptive repetition, strengthens neural pathways. But the research was done with regard to stroke victims. The 160 repetitions occurred at a rate of one per 5+ seconds. At that rate you can learn to recognize 4 words per hour. To build a vocabulary of 50,000 words, that of a typical adult, would take about 12,500 hours. Funny how that order of magnitude keeps coming up. :)

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 Post subject: Re: good old repetition
Post #4 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:05 pm 
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Strangely, it was not so much the repetition part that intrigued me as much as the bit about not trying to memorise.

I recall when my mothed visited me last year, and I said "Oh, that`s a dentist`s office - but I`ve no idea when I learned how to read the sign". Again, with go, I`m finding there are many techniques that I am beginning to recognise, but without any recollection of where I encountered them first. It seems that, as John indicated, when you are in a supportive environment, you will get a lot of learning that you did not bargain for.

Conversely, it`s hard for me to remember things when I try to memorise them. Could it be a matter of focus? If you focus on the thing itself, in a relaxed way, it will stick with you; if you focus on the effort, it will always be hard to rememeber. As a musicologist, I`ve learned thousands and thousands of musical "shapes", but many of them have just become natural to me as a consequence of spending nearly 20 years singing every day.

In go, it seems reasonable to surmise that carefully playing through many go games alone will familiarise you with all the key techniques and joseki (and that can be supported by reading books to explain the meanings of such). It might be even better if you take Rowson`s suggestion, and use pro games for training, attempting to predict how the game developed and then comparing your thinking with the actual continuation.

Therefore, the way forward might be: a supportive "environment" (i.e., immersion in the country, immersion in pro games), paying attention, being relaxed and receptive.

BTW, I looked at a Shuei game last night - my impression: slow, but mighty.

I`d like to choose a pro to concentrate on, per John`s suggestion, but I am concerned about the "narrative" it induce. That is, I don`t want to catch myself thinking "I play like ZZZ 9 dan" simply because I study his games; you can`t play like another player, and besides which, wouldn`t it be cooler to have your own style?

For a long time, I have admired O Meien, because there`s something "space age" and creative about his style, but it might do me more good to study the games of somebody like Otake or Takagawa. Any thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: good old repetition
Post #5 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:45 pm 
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Tami wrote:
I`d like to choose a pro to concentrate on, per John`s suggestion, but I am concerned about the "narrative" it induce. That is, I don`t want to catch myself thinking "I play like ZZZ 9 dan" simply because I study his games; you can`t play like another player, and besides which, wouldn`t it be cooler to have your own style?

For a long time, I have admired O Meien, because there`s something "space age" and creative about his style, but it might do me more good to study the games of somebody like Otake or Takagawa. Any thoughts?


When I think about creative players, of course, Go Seigen comes to mind. :) But you did not mention him. Fujisawa Hideyuki is another. :) Besides, he has authored a whole lot of books. Of the ancients, Dosaku is inspiring. 13 dan, indeed! And a guy I like is Sakaguchi Sentoku. There were two of them, actually. The one I like is the elder, who lived in the 18th century. He was a high flyer. Here is one of his games, with a couple of light hearted comments by me. :)



Edit: I believe the players got reversed. This SGF came from GoGOD, but another source has Sakaguchi as White. White's play fits his style. :) I have changed the colors.

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 Post subject: Re: good old repetition
Post #6 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:27 pm 
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Thanks for sharing this game, Bill. It is absolutely exquisite. I`ve so far spent an hour on it, but it feels as though I could spend days.

Funnily enough, I find myself admiring Inoue`s play as much as Sakaguchi`s, especially in the earlier stages.

I have been growing through it slowly, trying to predict how play developed.

Moves I particularly enjoyed were:

B23 - Using O Meien`s "zone press" I found it myself and considered it, but rejected it as too slow. Yet when it is put on the board - "wow!".
W32 - I found this and felt very smug to see it was actually played. Again, "zone press".
W40 - A wonderful move. It looks so modern. I did not see it.
B41 - At first it seemed unbelievably slow, but the more I think about it, the more powerful it is. I`d have played P3 probably, but realise White could have cut and taken many points in the centre and bottom.
W42 - Beautiful. I "nearly" found it, but predicted P11 instead. W42 looks better shape.
B51 - right on the spot. I did not think of it, but now I have seen it, the power is apparent.
B53 - seen but rejected. Upon seeing it was actually played, it was impressive.
W54 - so calm.
B55 - I wanted to play C11, but this move shows its value as the game progresses.
B57 - Came as a shock. Of course it`s a well-known probe, but it was fascinating trying to understand why he chose this move here. Still in the dark though, although the result looks fine for Black.
W60 - lovely, calm, shapely, silent but violent
B65 and 71 - Did Sakaguchi have an advance copy of O Rissei`s shinogi book or something??
B82 - hard to see, but impressive
W86 - there`s nothing new under the sun. A lovely cosmic move 200 years ahead of its time.
W96 - big and strong
B101 - now B55 shows its long-term value, giving support to this

This is as far as I have come with this game. It is surprising to see how "modern" it is.

And I`d like to take a moment to thank you for being an excellent guy, Mr Spight. It is really heartwarming to see how you help so many people, for instance Bhoidre, by sharing your knowledge and skills. It is admired and appreciated!

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 Post subject: Re: good old repetition
Post #7 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:41 pm 
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Tami wrote:
Thanks for sharing this game, Bill. It is absolutely exquisite. I`ve so far spent an hour on it, but it feels as though I could spend days.


I really enjoy many of these old games. They are both strange and familiar. And often full of beauty. :)

I found this game on the 木石庵 site ( http://mignon.ddo.jp/assembly/mignon/go.html ). :)

Quote:

Funnily enough, I find myself admiring Inoue`s play as much as Sakaguchi`s, especially in the earlier stages.


I am afraid that the SGF I posted got the players reversed. Certainly White played like Sentoku.

Quote:
I have been growing through it slowly, trying to predict how play developed.


I really appreciate your reactions and comments. :)

Quote:
B23 - Using O Meien`s "zone press" I found it myself and considered it, but rejected it as too slow. Yet when it is put on the board - "wow!".
W32 - I found this and felt very smug to see it was actually played. Again, "zone press".


I don't know from zone press, but it obviously has merit. :)

Quote:
W40 - A wonderful move. It looks so modern. I did not see it.


Sentoku had a model in Dosaku. You will note how Sentoku's early plays as White were takamoku. Dosaku liked to play mokuhazushi as White. One of his openings was called the swastika mokuhazushi. :)

Quote:
B41 - At first it seemed unbelievably slow, but the more I think about it, the more powerful it is. I`d have played P3 probably, but realise White could have cut and taken many points in the centre and bottom.


I have my doubts about :b41:. After all, Black fell behind somewhere. ;) Maybe the boshi at P-09?

Quote:
W42 - Beautiful. I "nearly" found it, but predicted P11 instead. W42 looks better shape.


Yes, just right, isn't it? :)

Quote:
B53 - seen but rejected. Upon seeing it was actually played, it was impressive.


Honte. Nice and thick. I thought of Fujisawa Hideyuki. :)

Quote:
B57 - Came as a shock. Of course it`s a well-known probe, but it was fascinating trying to understand why he chose this move here. Still in the dark though, although the result looks fine for Black.


Of course Black has to invade, and make use of his thickness.

Quote:
W60 - lovely, calm, shapely, silent but violent


I think I would have played the sagari to seal the corner and fought things out on the left side. {shrug}

I was impressed by :w80:. Another honte.

Quote:
W96 - big and strong


Maybe White could smell the win at this point. :)

Quote:
And I`d like to take a moment to thank you for being an excellent guy, Mr Spight. It is really heartwarming to see how you help so many people, for instance Bhoidre, by sharing your knowledge and skills. It is admired and appreciated!


Thank you. :) As for young Boidhre, the man plays go. :)

I remember how people took me under their wing when I was a 13 year old bridge player, and later when I took up go. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


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