It is currently Sat May 03, 2025 9:30 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #21 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:19 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1810
Liked others: 490
Was liked: 365
Rank: KGS 1-dan
You can't miss these then:


http://pauillac.inria.fr/~xleroy/stuff/english-pronunciation.html wrote:
Dearest creature in creation,
Study English pronunciation.
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse.
I will keep you, Suzy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy.
Tear in eye, your dress will tear.
So shall I! Oh hear my prayer.

Just compare heart, beard, and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word,
Sword and sward, retain and Britain.
(Mind the latter, how it's written.)
Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as plaque and ague.
But be careful how you speak:
Say break and steak, but bleak and streak;
Cloven, oven, how and low,
Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe.

Hear me say, devoid of trickery,
Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore,
Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles,
Exiles, similes, and reviles;
Scholar, vicar, and cigar,
Solar, mica, war and far;
One, anemone, Balmoral,
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel;
Gertrude, German, wind and mind,
Scene, Melpomene, mankind.

Billet does not rhyme with ballet,
Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.
Blood and flood are not like food,
Nor is mould like should and would.
Viscous, viscount, load and broad,
Toward, to forward, to reward.
And your pronunciation's OK
When you correctly say croquet,
Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,
Friend and fiend, alive and live.

Ivy, privy, famous; clamour
And enamour rhyme with hammer.
River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb,
Doll and roll and some and home.
Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
Neither does devour with clangour.
Souls but foul, haunt but aunt,
Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant,
Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger,
And then singer, ginger, linger,
Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age.

Query does not rhyme with very,
Nor does fury sound like bury.
Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth.
Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath.
Though the differences seem little,
We say actual but victual.
Refer does not rhyme with deafer.
Foeffer does, and zephyr, heifer.
Mint, pint, senate and sedate;
Dull, bull, and George ate late.
Scenic, Arabic, Pacific,
Science, conscience, scientific.

Liberty, library, heave and heaven,
Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven.
We say hallowed, but allowed,
People, leopard, towed, but vowed.
Mark the differences, moreover,
Between mover, cover, clover;
Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,
Chalice, but police and lice;
Camel, constable, unstable,
Principle, disciple, label.

Petal, panel, and canal,
Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal.
Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,
Senator, spectator, mayor.
Tour, but our and succour, four.
Gas, alas, and Arkansas.
Sea, idea, Korea, area,
Psalm, Maria, but malaria.
Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean.
Doctrine, turpentine, marine.

Compare alien with Italian,
Dandelion and battalion.
Sally with ally, yea, ye,
Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key.
Say aver, but ever, fever,
Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver.
Heron, granary, canary.
Crevice and device and aerie.

Face, but preface, not efface.
Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.
Large, but target, gin, give, verging,
Ought, out, joust and scour, scourging.
Ear, but earn and wear and tear
Do not rhyme with here but ere.
Seven is right, but so is even,
Hyphen, roughen, nephew Stephen,
Monkey, donkey, Turk and jerk,
Ask, grasp, wasp, and cork and work.

Pronunciation -- think of Psyche!
Is a paling stout and spikey?
Won't it make you lose your wits,
Writing groats and saying grits?
It's a dark abyss or tunnel:
Strewn with stones, stowed, solace, gunwale,
Islington and Isle of Wight,
Housewife, verdict and indict.

Finally, which rhymes with enough --
Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough?
Hiccough has the sound of cup.
My advice is to give up!!!

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go


This post by SoDesuNe was liked by 4 people: Bill Spight, daal, gowan, MJK
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #22 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:20 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2508
Liked others: 1304
Was liked: 1128
Q: How is the word ghoti pronounced?

A:
fish. gh as in enough, o as in women, ti as in action. :mrgreen:

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #23 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:34 am 
Judan

Posts: 6269
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 796
In English, German and presumably many other languages, phonetics, spelling and grammar are hopelessly complicated. it should be as simple as an imperative programming language:) Language changes faster than language codification can keep up with it, and the result is endless complexity. For expressing a great variety of contents, degrees of truth, emotions or personality, a much simpler language would be possible:

He true 100 happy 100.

Why is natural language not so simple? Because everybody would exaggerate the extreme values 0 and 100. Complicated grammar has the advantage of allowing a great variety of nuances, without encouraging abuse of extrema.

This, however, does not answer why the relation between phonetics and spelling must be complicated. One phoneme, one spelling suffices, IMO. In German, this amounts to

Füür dii konnseekwännte Räächtschreieibreefoorm!

Für die konsequente Rechtschreibreform!

In favour of the consistent spelling reform!


This post by RobertJasiek was liked by: MJK
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #24 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:18 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 94
Location: Amsterdam, NL
Liked others: 29
Was liked: 63
Boidhre wrote:
This is impossible as who decides? Do we reform to American pronunciation? British? Indian? Irish? Do we have different spelling in every country? Which dialect gets to be the prestige dialect in each one? Etc.

There are plenty of ways to give changes to English spelling without having problems with the difference between various dialects. For example,

1. some, come, rough, buff, thorough, front → sum, cum, ruf, buf, thurro, frunt
2. women → wimmen
3. split 'bow' to 'bou' and 'bo'
4. generally apply the rule that 'short vowel in front of two consonants before another vowel, or one consonant at the end of the word; and long vowel in front of one consonant before another vowel, or one consanant before an 'e' at the end of the word' premise, economy, dictionary, mineral, cashew, saturate, year, contain → premmis, ecconnommi, dictionnarry, minnerral, casshoo, satchurrate, ere, contane
5. source, course, more, bore, pour → sors, cors, mor, bor, por
6. search, lurk, curtain, smirch, earn → serch, lerk, kertn, smerch, ern

There might be some more of these, but anyway I believe these changes would not have any problem with the diversity of English dialects.

Who dicides? I don't know. But I cannot understand why neither American nor British official organization such as the government has not ever announced a spelling reform since the 17th century or maybe before when the English spelling was actually different with today's. This is not normal with other languages that I am familiar with, for example, Korean, Japanese, German, Dutch, French; since their orthography was changed within last 50 years. Therefore, I can read what is written in those languages even though I mostly do not know what it means at all; while this may never be possible with English.

_________________
Wait, please.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #25 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:29 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 94
Location: Amsterdam, NL
Liked others: 29
Was liked: 63
cyclops wrote:
I studied physics in Holland from 1970. Colleges were in Dutch but the textbooks were English. I think that is the way it should be. I understand you are from the far east so welcome in "my" Amsterdam. Colleges in Dutch wont be very practical for you. If you need some advice from a dutch guy with some knowledge of universities, mathematics, go and amsterdam please let me know. English is a difficult language. I can speak it without thinking but I am sure I make many mistakes in grammar, idiom pronunciation and clumsiness. Even about the last sentence I am not sure wether I should replace "I" by "to". probably both are correct.

Check the website of UvA, there are some regular courses provided purely in English while this is the main reason why my Dutch sadly is not improving; I will try learing more Dutch, though. And I'm not sure what you meant by 'practical' but the collage in Dutch which I am in is practical, I believe, in some sense. Very thanks for your offer of help and agreeing with the difficultness, complicatedness, or probably messiness of English. :)

_________________
Wait, please.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #26 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:32 am 
Judan

Posts: 6269
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 796
MJK wrote:
German [...] their orthography was changed within last 50 years


This reform was tiny, removed only the worst exceptions and introduced a few new problems. A reform in 1876/1901

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_R ... ahrhundert

had more impact: Thür und Thor were simplified to Tür und Tor.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #27 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:47 am 
Oza

Posts: 2356
Location: Ireland
Liked others: 662
Was liked: 442
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
MJK wrote:
Boidhre wrote:
This is impossible as who decides? Do we reform to American pronunciation? British? Indian? Irish? Do we have different spelling in every country? Which dialect gets to be the prestige dialect in each one? Etc.

There are plenty of ways to give changes to English spelling without having problems with the difference between various dialects. For example,

1. some, come, rough, buff, thorough, front → sum, cum, ruf, buf, thurro, frunt
2. women → wimmen
3. split 'bow' to 'bou' and 'bo'
4. generally apply the rule that 'short vowel in front of two consonants before another vowel, or one consonant at the end of the word; and long vowel in front of one consonant before another vowel, or one consanant before an 'e' at the end of the word' premise, economy, dictionary, mineral, cashew, saturate, year, contain → premmis, ecconnommi, dictionnarry, minnerral, casshoo, satchurrate, ere, contane
5. source, course, more, bore, pour → sors, cors, mor, bor, por
6. search, lurk, curtain, smirch, earn → serch, lerk, kertn, smerch, ern

There might be some more of these, but anyway I believe these changes would not have any problem with the diversity of English dialects.

Who dicides? I don't know. But I cannot understand why neither American nor British official organization such as the government has not ever announced a spelling reform since the 17th century or maybe before when the English spelling was actually different with today's. This is not normal with other languages that I am familiar with, for example, Korean, Japanese, German, Dutch, French; since their orthography was changed within last 50 years. Therefore, I can read what is written in those languages even though I mostly do not know what it means at all; while this may never be possible with English.


Individual letters don't have consistent pronounciations in English. "bo" I'm not sure if that's supposed to be a short or long "o" for example. Honestly, I'm sorry but you don't appreciate the complexity of the situation here. Most of your replacements there wouldn't sound anything like what you think they'll sound like if someone from my dialect said them.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #28 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:26 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 94
Location: Amsterdam, NL
Liked others: 29
Was liked: 63
Boidhre wrote:
Individual letters don't have consistent pronounciations in English. "bo" I'm not sure if that's supposed to be a short or long "o" for example. Honestly, I'm sorry but you don't appreciate the complexity of the situation here. Most of your replacements there wouldn't sound anything like what you think they'll sound like if someone from my dialect said them.

Pleez giv me sum exampls too support yor oppinnion. I am nou riting in a way that I think hou the regguler way ov Ingglish spelling wuud be. Even if such chainjis in orthographi wuud not mach wel with a perticculer Irish dyalect, I certnli beleev that this wuud be mor fine and regguler than uzing the cerrent Ingglish spelling in yor dyalect. No spelling reform ov a nachral human langguij can perfectli mach with all ov its dyalects. Thare was(pronounced either 'wuz' or 'woz') allwayz a standerd dyalect or dyalects to allso provide standerd spelling when spelling reforms occerred in other languijjis. The accents in Ammerican and Brittish TV programs werk fine as standerds in Ingglish, and it iz not hard to provide a regguler spelling sistem too werk fine in theze all.

_________________
Wait, please.


Last edited by MJK on Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #29 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:29 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1744
Liked others: 704
Was liked: 288
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Something I've wondered before: is English the only language with national spelling competitions? The words they choose for those are a bit silly, but it does underline the vast complicated mess of English spelling.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #30 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:38 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 94
Location: Amsterdam, NL
Liked others: 29
Was liked: 63
Vote Yes Scotland 2014 wrote:
5/30/2013 11:57 PM

I have a spelling checker.
It came with my pea sea.
It plane lee marks four my revue
Miss steaks aye can knot sea.

Eye ran this poem threw it,
Your sure reel glad two no.
Its vary polished in it's weigh.
My checker tolled me sew.

A checker is a bless sing,
It freeze yew lodes of thyme.
It helps me right awl stiles two reed,
And aides me when I rime.

Each frays come posed up on my screen
eye trussed too bee a joule.
The checker pours o'er every word
To cheque sum spelling rule.

_________________
Wait, please.


This post by MJK was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #31 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:21 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2777
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 251
Was liked: 549
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
emeraldemon wrote:
Something I've wondered before: is English the only language with national spelling competitions? The words they choose for those are a bit silly, but it does underline the vast complicated mess of English spelling.


In Japan they can sort of do the reverse. I haven't seen competitions, but on TV they'll show unusual kanji combinations and see if people can guess the pronunciation.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #32 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:24 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
MJK wrote:
Vote Yes Scotland 2014 wrote:
5/30/2013 11:57 PM

I have a spelling checker.
It came with my pea sea.
It plane lee marks four my revue
Miss steaks aye can knot sea.

Eye ran this poem threw it,
Your sure reel glad two no.
Its vary polished in it's weigh.
My checker tolled me sew.

A checker is a bless sing,
It freeze yew lodes of thyme.
It helps me right awl stiles two reed,
And aides me when I rime.

Each frays come posed up on my screen
eye trussed too bee a joule.
The checker pours o'er every word
To cheque sum spelling rule.


Win your rite, your rite!

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #33 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:13 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1628
Liked others: 546
Was liked: 450
Rank: senior player
GD Posts: 1000
This is an interesting topic. In the end communication is the most important thing. If you can get to the point where you are understood by native speakers as well as understand their speech you have a high level of proficiency. The fact is that most native speakers of English have very little knowledge of formal grammar; they judge by whether it "sounds right". This perception of what sounds right comes from extensive exposure to the language in ordinary speech, literature, and written text. It doesn't come from explicit rules. I think the same is true for almost every native language (as opposed to artificially created languages like Esperanto). As for speaking a foreign language, there are three stages of a speaker's development: 1) your speech is so unskilled that native speakers can't easily understand and have to correct you a lot; 2) native speakers understand you easily but though you still make grammar and pronunciation mistakes, native speakers don't feel a need to correct you very much; 3) native speakers correct you because your speech is so good that minor errors seem important.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #34 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:28 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
gowan wrote:
As for speaking a foreign language, there are three stages of a speaker's development: 1) your speech is so unskilled that native speakers can't easily understand and have to correct you a lot; 2) native speakers understand you easily but though you still make grammar and pronunciation mistakes, native speakers don't feel a need to correct you very much; 3) native speakers correct you because your speech is so good that minor errors seem important.


I experienced two phases in Japan.

1) Nihongo wa ojouzu desu ne! (Your Japanese is very good.) ;)

2) Just talking. :)

Aside from teachers and tutors, my girlfriend's mother was the only one to offer corrections to my Japanese. The lack of correction was somewhat frustrating.

As for understanding, Japlish could be horrible. I remember asking what koohii zeri was, only to be told emphatically that it was English! koohii I knew (coffee), but zeri? Turns out it was coffee jelly. :lol: Would anybody but the Japanese make coffee jelly? Or put mayonnaise on pizza? :shock:

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #35 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:37 am 
Oza

Posts: 2356
Location: Ireland
Liked others: 662
Was liked: 442
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Coffee Jelly? I've had that. We take chips (French Fries) and drown them in garlic mayo and put a lot of grated cheese on top. Curry sauce (note not related to, or tasting like, any Indian curry sauce) may be substituted for the mayo. Other options include adding marrowfat peas on top of the curry and possibly with the cheese but almost never with the mayo. Perhaps the oddest combination I've had is chips and stuffing (bread based stuffing, though sometimes potato based, normally reserved for roast chickens). Regarding pizza it was discovered that it is merely another way to serve an Irish breakfast yet charge more for the privilege.

At least we don't deep-fry everything I suppose, just the occasional Mars Bar or Creme Egg (Scottish people have mastered this culinary form).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #36 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:47 am 
Oza

Posts: 2264
Liked others: 1180
Was liked: 553
gowan wrote:
The fact is that most native speakers of English have very little knowledge of formal grammar; they judge by whether it "sounds right". This perception of what sounds right comes from extensive exposure to the language in ordinary speech, literature, and written text. It doesn't come from explicit rules.

And this is why I personally believe we should replay more Professional games, and less studying books on rules and technique.


This post by xed_over was liked by: gowan
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #37 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:50 am 
Oza

Posts: 2356
Location: Ireland
Liked others: 662
Was liked: 442
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
xed_over wrote:
gowan wrote:
The fact is that most native speakers of English have very little knowledge of formal grammar; they judge by whether it "sounds right". This perception of what sounds right comes from extensive exposure to the language in ordinary speech, literature, and written text. It doesn't come from explicit rules.

And this is why I personally believe we should replay more Professional games, and less studying books on rules and technique.


We learn our native languages as children, not adults normally.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #38 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:55 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2777
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 251
Was liked: 549
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
Boidhre wrote:
We learn our native languages as children, not adults normally.


Even for adults immersion is a better way to learn language than text books. Immersion for adults is just less practical.


This post by oren was liked by 2 people: gowan, xed_over
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #39 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:21 am 
Oza

Posts: 2356
Location: Ireland
Liked others: 662
Was liked: 442
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
oren wrote:
Boidhre wrote:
We learn our native languages as children, not adults normally.


Even for adults immersion is a better way to learn language than text books. Immersion for adults is just less practical.


Eh, source? I'm curious, I've heard not the opposite but that immersion as a sole learning method only works for most people when they're young children. When you're older you normally need some other sources (not necessarily text books, but e.g. grammar drills) to go with the immersion that children don't seem to require.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go, English, Math
Post #40 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:30 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2777
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 251
Was liked: 549
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
Boidhre wrote:
Eh, source? I'm curious, I've heard not the opposite but that immersion as a sole learning method only works for most people when they're young children. When you're older you normally need some other sources (not necessarily text books, but e.g. grammar drills) to go with the immersion that children don't seem to require.


Sorry on this one I'll claim mostly self-experience from going to Japan and staying with a host family. I was learning in classes on the side but 90% of the useful learning for me was chatting with the host family and others.

No studies to quote. :)


This post by oren was liked by: gowan
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group