Who needs algebra?

Aidoneus · #1

As too many L19ers have a distorted understanding of my criticism of our current education system, I will just share this link without comment. http://www.npr.org/blogs/ed/2014/10/09/ ... ds-algebra

daal · #2

Just to get a discussion rolling, I think that the approach the article describes is a good thing. Not only are the educators re-evaluating which skills are important to know in today's world, but also they are getting their students to become more persistent when facing challenges.

DrStraw · #3

Quote:

Algebra is useful if you're going to be compounding chemical substances for a manufacturing firm or if you're an engineer," Mellow explains. "But understanding statistics, probability, levels of risk — whether for retirement planning or the risk of your kid getting a concussion in football — those are real-life issues people will face."

The basic concept of algebra us "Do unto one side what thou wouldst do unto the other." This is just as important in life and in mathematics. If this simple idea would be taught at an early age then I don't think people would find algebra much harder than any other topic. Of course, there is the abstraction of the unknonw, x, but the human brain is perfectly capable of abstraction so that can also be taught early.

Bill Spight · #4

DrStraw wrote:

Quote:

Algebra is useful if you're going to be compounding chemical substances for a manufacturing firm or if you're an engineer," Mellow explains. "But understanding statistics, probability, levels of risk — whether for retirement planning or the risk of your kid getting a concussion in football — those are real-life issues people will face."

The basic concept of algebra us "Do unto one side what thou wouldst do unto the other." This is just as important in life and in mathematics. If this simple idea would be taught at an early age then I don't think people would find algebra much harder than any other topic. Of course, there is the abstraction of the unknonw, x, but the human brain is perfectly capable of abstraction so that can also be taught early.

The human brain is imperfectly capable of abstraction. Piaget thought that only some 15% (IIRC) of the human race could master formal operations. I think that's an underestimate, but they are not for everyone. Even professors of logic failed the Wason Task. :shock:

But when you reframe the task in terms of the familiar and concrete, so that it is about social cheating, nearly everybody gets it right. I think that the success of putting students directly into applied math courses not only has to do with relevance, but also with concreteness.

DrStraw · #5

I agree that not everyone is capable of performing formal operations. But I think that a university level education should assume a certain minimum level of ability and formal thinking should be part of that.

Not everyone should have to go to university. So many jobs these days require a degree when they don't need one. So many degrees are granted in subjects which should not have a degree. Let those who don't need one go into the workforce early and have earned for four years by the age of twenty-two instead of going into debt for four years. They will also know more about the job at that age. Some jobs need a degree, of course, and those jobs need formal operations. Most jobs don't need a degree and many of those don't need formal operations.

Solomon · #6

Quote:

"Algebra is useful if you're going to be compounding chemical substances for a manufacturing firm or if you're an engineer," Mellow explains. "But understanding statistics, probability, levels of risk — whether for retirement planning or the risk of your kid getting a concussion in football — those are real-life issues people will face."

Trying to teach probability theory / statistics without algebra is like trying to teach someone how to sacrifice your stones effectively without teaching them how capturing works.

Bill Spight · #7

DrStraw wrote:

I agree that not everyone is capable of performing formal operations. But I think that a university level education should assume a certain minimum level of ability and formal thinking should be part of that.

Not everyone should have to go to university. So many jobs these days require a degree when they don't need one. So many degrees are granted in subjects which should not have a degree. Let those who don't need one go into the workforce early and have earned for four years by the age of twenty-two instead of going into debt for four years. They will also know more about the job at that age. Some jobs need a degree, of course, and those jobs need formal operations. Most jobs don't need a degree and many of those don't need formal operations.

I agree with much of what you say. However, if we are to have a future of shared prosperity instead of something resembling Dickensian society or a banana republic, one path is to delay entry into the workforce for as many people as possible. Saddling them with debt is not part of that path, but, given the expectation that people will take at least two years of college, public financing is not difficult to provide. (Moi, I would prefer a 24 hour work week, but that is a harder sell than sending people to school.)

Bill Spight · #8

Araban wrote:

Quote:

"Algebra is useful if you're going to be compounding chemical substances for a manufacturing firm or if you're an engineer," Mellow explains. "But understanding statistics, probability, levels of risk — whether for retirement planning or the risk of your kid getting a concussion in football — those are real-life issues people will face."

Trying to teach probability theory / statistics without algebra is like trying to teach someone how to sacrifice your stones effectively without teaching them how capturing works.

You can make much of probability concrete with dice, cards, and wagers. Even the Monty Hall problem can be concretely taught.

DrStraw · #9

Bill Spight wrote:

I agree with much of what you say. However, if we are to have a future of shared prosperity instead of something resembling Dickensian society or a banana republic, one path is to delay entry into the workforce for as many people as possible. Saddling them with debt is not part of that path, but, given the expectation that people will take at least two years of college, public financing is not difficult to provide. (Moi, I would prefer a 24 hour work week, but that is a harder sell than sending people to school.)

I got that in Britain. I did not pay a penny to get all the way up to a PhD. That ended though in 1993. With the current economic turmoil the world is in there just isn't enough money going around to pay for it all. Now, if the military industrial complex would just stop waging war on the rest of the world there would be plenty to go around. I read somewhere recently that it cost $600 a year in Norway to get a degree.

Oh, and we already live in a Dickensian banana republic. It will be hard to get out of it.

cyclops · **#10**

Nothing wrong with ( some ) political discussions on L19!

cyclops · **#11**

Female singer: "Wat heb ik nou aan algebra
Als ik voor de keuze sta"

What is the use of algebra if I have to choose ( between one lover or the other )

DrStraw · **#12**

cyclops wrote:

Nothing wrong with ( some ) political discussions on L19!

Nothing to do with politics. Everything to do with economics.

Bill Spight · **#13**

DrStraw wrote:

With the current economic turmoil the world is in there just isn't enough money going around to pay for it all.

That is not much of a technical problem.

Quote:

Oh, and we already live in a Dickensian banana republic. It will be hard to get out of it.

It is, as you indicate, a political problem.

DrStraw · **#14**

Bill Spight wrote:

DrStraw wrote:

With the current economic turmoil the world is in there just isn't enough money going around to pay for it all.

That is not much of a technical problem.

Sure it is. There just isn't that much money around in the world. That is why they have to create all these Federal Reserve Notes, which are worthless and not money.

Bill Spight · **#15**

DrStraw wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

DrStraw wrote:

With the current economic turmoil the world is in there just isn't enough money going around to pay for it all.

That is not much of a technical problem.

Sure it is. There just isn't that much money around in the world. That is why they have to create all these Federal Reserve Notes, which are worthless and not money.

All that is required is Congressional authorization.

DrStraw · **#16**

Bill Spight wrote:

DrStraw wrote:

Sure it is. There just isn't that much money around in the world. That is why they have to create all these Federal Reserve Notes, which are worthless and not money.

All that is required is Congressional authorization.

You need a course in basic economics, I fear. And not the Keynesian type which the government has fallen for.

hyperpape · **#17**

DrStraw wrote:

You need a course in basic economics, I fear.

id say this is the pot calling the kettle Black, but that's unfair to Bill.

DrStraw · **#18**

hyperpape wrote:

DrStraw wrote:

You need a course in basic economics, I fear.

id say this is the pot calling the kettle Black, but that's unfair to Bill.

I'd say you seem to take great delight in insulting and contradicting everything I say. Instead, perhaps you should read and learn.

tekesta · **#19**

The applications of algebra in the field of chemical engineering may be of interest only to a narrow segment of the population that engages in jobs involving chemistry. Applications of algebra in the field of finance, however, would be of interest to a much wider segment of the population, at least in its simpler manifestations. Surely everyone would like to have mathematical powers just strong enough to let them keep track of how much is earned and spent ;-)

As well, many of us in Western societies are conditioned to take the easy way out as often as possible; why waste all that time and effort using one method when the other is far more efficient and only requires that you stick your hand out :twisted:

Learning algebra when there is no immediate need for it seems like a waste of time to many people. Elementary arithmetic is more than enough for the majority of the masses that do not apply scientific knowledge on a daily basis.

It would be nice to have a core theory that explains, in a nutshell, everything that can ever occur in a game of Go and so allow us to win from the first game, but then we'd have to come up with a core theory for human existence, one that keeps us in perpetual happiness and prevents suffering.

Bill Spight · **#20**

DrStraw wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

DrStraw wrote:

Sure it is. There just isn't that much money around in the world. That is why they have to create all these Federal Reserve Notes, which are worthless and not money.

All that is required is Congressional authorization.

You need a course in basic economics, I fear. And not the Keynesian type which the government has fallen for.

What is the source of the US Dollar?

Forget Keynes. Here is Alan Greenspan:

Quote:

The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that. So there is zero probability of default.

( http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quote ... 13497.html )

It was Milton Friedman, no Keynesian he, who advised Nixon to take the dollar completely off of redemption in gold in 1971.

Money is a social construct. Even Merle Haggard knew that:

Quote:

I wish a buck was still silver.

He did not like that fact, but he knew it. (He may have been disappointed when he redeemed a one dollar silver certificate and only got four quarters for it.

)

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