It is currently Sat May 03, 2025 10:05 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: xkcd Infinite Scrolling & Internet For Dummies
Post #1 Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:38 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Sorry I was a little slow on the draw, but Friday's xkcd was quite funny - http://xkcd.com/1309/ and my favorite part was the alt-text. "Maybe we should give up on the whole idea of a 'back' button. 'Show me that thing I was looking at a moment ago' might just be too complicated an idea for the modern web."

I laughed out loud when I read it. Then it hit me how stupid this is. Facebook, Twitter, and many popular websites have this exact failing. The Internet seems to have forgotten how browsers work. It's as if web developers don't want people to use browsers to view their pages, they want the pages to be like independent applications. Or perhaps it is laziness or other such nonsense. Whatever the case, Randall Monroe made a valid point about how this is actually a new problem. The old Internet didn't have this failing.

So set your way-back machine to the 1990s. I have an old copy of Internet For Dummies that I dusted off when I saw this comic.

Internet for Dummies, 6th Edition (c. 1999)
On page 88 this book discusses the magic of the Back button in its "Backward, ho!" Tip:

Web browsers remember that last few pages you visited, so if you click on a link and decide you're not so crazy about the new page, you can easily go back to the preceding one. To go back, click the Back button (its icon is an arrow pointing to the left, a pair of arrows in Opera) or press Alt+Left Arrow.

The book says you'll need at least 16MB of RAM to run either Netscape 4.0 or Internet Explorer 4.0 and at least Windows 3.1 or a Mac. It discusses how without at least 32 MB of RAM the programs themselves can create problems when loading complex pages with images on them, but that the Internet speed itself (i.e. dial-up) is often the culprit of slow loading pages. It explains that you can tell your browsers not to "Auto Load Images" so you can just get the text of a web page. For anyone that remembers dial-up and 90s Internet this all seems reasonable. And for those that do not, xkcd is using this technology to add the additional joke to his comic. If you did not Auto Load Images then it displayed the text as an alternative - hence, alternative-text - so that you would have some idea what the image was supposed to be an how the website was laid out even if your computer or connection was too slow to handle it.

A Solution?
15 years ago, on computers that couldn't handle loading even the most basic of web pages today, web browsers and websites could handle you clicking the Back button. Today, it's just too hard. How on earth did we, as an Internet society, screw this one up? With all the garbage sites put in our caches and all the dumb cookies that get stored on our computer and all of our personal data that gets stored on servers all around the world you'd think that a major company could write a script that lets something as basic as a Back button work with their page.

I only did a couple years of college programming, so I'm no expert, but how about this? - When I click on a friend's profile in their status update on my News Feed take me there, I do whatever. Then, when I show up at the News Feed again, remember me. I'm signed in, there's no way to screw that one up. Then ask "Did he click the Home or Facebook link to get back here?" It's on their website so they can track if I click that. If I did, then bring me to the top of the page. Otherwise, assume I hit the Back button on my browser, remember which status update I clicked on, and scroll me to that update automatically. The odds that I'm going to my News Feed from a link external to Facebook that isn't the Back button is virtually zero, and if I did Google may way there then I can deal with being scrolled down. I can just click Home and be brought back to the top!

Then you guys know the drill. Implement comparable scripts on other major websites. ??? Profit

Another Sad Thing
I couldn't help but look through other parts of this book. It was quite funny to see old images of the Internet. The nostalgia factor of seeing Internet Explorer on a Windows 95 desktop was great. But then I found something else sad that the Internet hasn't been able to fix.

This 1999 edition of Internet for Dummies also discusses primitive phishing scams. It doesn't call them that, but in the section on Chain Letters a couple of them are what we would now call phishing scams - they are trying to collect personal information or to get you to send money to someone. The term is old enough that it could have been in the book, but from what I remember these kinds of scams were not well publicized in the 90s. Even so, this just tells you how slow society has been about dealing with educating folks about this issue. We've known about them for more than 15 years and people still fall for these scams.

I just realized that someone reading this may not have even been alive in 1999 - and that is possible considering they could be even as old as 13 now. It would be impossible for them to know what the pre-Google, pre-YouTube, pre-Facebook/MySpace Internet was like. I'm too young to feel this old. :-?

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves


This post by moyoaji was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: xkcd Infinite Scrolling & Internet For Dummies
Post #2 Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:24 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2221
Location: Germany
Liked others: 8268
Was liked: 924
Rank: OGS 9k
OGS: trohde
Universal go server handle: trohde
moyoaji wrote:
[..]
Thank you :-)

Quote:

Internet for Dummies, 6th Edition (c. 1999)
Heh, and how the “Internet” already was old then …

Quote:
[..] For anyone that remembers dial-up and 90s Internet [..]
Oh my, I remember feeling awe while cursing :-D

Quote:
[..]

I just realized that someone reading this may not have even been alive in 1999 - and that is possible considering they could be even as old as 13 now. It would be impossible for them to know what the pre-Google, pre-YouTube, pre-Facebook/MySpace Internet was like. I'm too young to feel this old. :-?
Heh, your “pre-Google [..] Internet” actually is only a little part of the ’net, it is the pre-Google [..] WWW. Makes me smile how so many people today think “the Internet” is the bling bling we see on their screens (and how just a short time ago for most people “the Internet” was the blue “e” on their Windows quickstart bar :-D ), while there were and are so many more services that altogether make up the ’net. My first ’net experience was with FTP (remember Anarchy?) and newsgroups (connected with UUCP, not TCP/IP), then mailing lists, the Web came much later.

And then, ah, Mosaic memories :-D And later … I still remember how a friend sent me a mail pointing me towards that new search engine when it was just a few hours old :-D

Greetz, Tom

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS? :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: xkcd Infinite Scrolling & Internet For Dummies
Post #3 Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:36 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1348
Location: Finland
Liked others: 49
Was liked: 129
Rank: FGA 7k GoR 1297
I still remember when one of my team members came to me and told that there is this new thing called browser and we should invest some time to look into the technology. I replied something like "nah, it's not worth it". (A couple of years later we were building the first HTML netbank in Finland)

Good days.

_________________
Offending ad removed


This post by tj86430 was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: xkcd Infinite Scrolling & Internet For Dummies
Post #4 Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:55 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Well, "the Internet" is such a broad thing it is almost more of an idea than something physical. It is the idea of all of the computers in the world being able to connect to each other. There are protocols and standards but there is no one physical thing that creates the Internet - a hilarious concept if you've ever seen that IT Crowd video. I have worked with physical servers before, both on the PHP and Linux software components and seeing the physical hardware, which is sort of like knowing the magic. It is just wires and wireless connections that brings me this page which is in some RAID array in a server somewhere and my computer interprets it and displays this and then sends information back to let me post the message. All the software, hardware, and firmware in between is the Internet.

Without a physical thing, most think of the HTTP/HTML sections of the Internet because that is what their browser gives them and that is their main source of interaction with the Internet. Most browsers nowadays don't even show or require the "http://" part, which was once needed to access a page because you might have wanted to use "ftp://" instead.

And most houses have an "intranet" nowadays - an impossible idea just 30 years ago - but people don't even realize it. Their wireless router links all of their computers together in one network. Something that would cost thousands of dollars for a company to cobble together with cables and boxes a few decades ago is now available wirelessly for under $100. At best folks think of it as their "Homegroup" and at worst it is just the magic force that makes their tablet connect to their TV. Or worse yet, they think that box is what gives them the Internet as the modem cries silently beside it and all the rest of the Internet laughs at how ridiculous it is when someone says "the Internet is out" when really it is just their one router acting wonky.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves


This post by moyoaji was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: xkcd Infinite Scrolling & Internet For Dummies
Post #5 Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:49 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 603
Liked others: 43
Was liked: 139
Rank: 6-7k KGS
Also sprach moyoaji:
Quote:
And for those that do not, xkcd is using this technology to add the additional joke to his comic. If you did not Auto Load Images then it displayed the text as an alternative - hence, alternative-text - so that you would have some idea what the image was supposed to be an how the website was laid out even if your computer or connection was too slow to handle it.

Actually, you quoted the title text, not the alt-text. Turn off images on that page and see what you get in place of the image; that's the alt-text. (Hint: it's not what you quoted.)

As somebody who still uses a browser/keyboard/mouse I hate that more and more sites seem to be optimized for people who use fondle-screen technology, as with the way Google changed its image search. There's also the way photo galleries increasingly seem not to work with right-clicking on an image and opening it in a new tab; instead, you can only left-click on it and get an overlay in the same tab. I also really hate the anti-social networking stuff; all those "tell everybody how much you want to be one of our groupies" button thingies seem to be terrible memory hogs. I also don't get the point of the Twitter widget that seems designed only to make the text look just like it does on Twitter, as opposed to just plain text and plain links, complete with the white-backgrounded rounded-off rectangle with a shadow behind it. Because those looks are oh so much more important than what people are actually saying.

Quote:
It's as if web developers don't want people to use browsers to view their pages, they want the pages to be like independent applications


xkcd already covered this, I think.

Finally, don't get me started on gifs substituting for video. They're almost never anywhere near as funny as the person who posts them seems to think they are, and are a huge bandwidth suck.


This post by Fedya was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group